Character Support & Upkeep...

[oldkat]

...

Player/Characters must pay Gold Pieces equal to 1% of their experience points for support and upkeep, until such time as they build a stronghold. p24 TU&WA

Let's think about this... a L2 character with 2750 XP is going to have to spend 2750 GP, what--per month? per year? Until he builds a stronghold?

The only other reference I find regarding support & upkeep is on the preceding page dealing with MEN AT ARMS. And it's talking monthly costs.

Did anyone ever play like this back in 1974?

Does anyone follow this guideline, today?

If so/not...why?


Personally, i think its awesome!

[howandwhy99]

Where are you getting 2750 GP per month for an PC XP of 2750?

BTB OD&D has Gold Pieces = XP, so the very most GP any character could have = their XP. That's a trick of OD&D.

Of course, people lose money for all kinds of reasons. So that's a top margin.

1% of 2750 XP = 27.5 GP

That places some urgency on players to not sit around, but go adventuring lest they use up all their treasure. But it's hardly onerous. For the life of me, I have no idea why that amount goes up with XP total. Is it Class ability maintenance?

I think this cost is meant to simplify living costs, food, housing, etc. I understand that makes things easier. For me, that takes away some of the game. I do not use this particular mechanic.

[oldkat]

Jul 29, 2017 13:15:26 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

Where are you getting 2750 GP per month for an PC XP of 2750?

BTB OD&D has Gold Pieces = XP, so the very most GP any character could have = their XP. That's a trick of OD&D.

Of course, people lose money for all kinds of reasons. So that's a top margin.

1% of 2750 XP = 27.5 GP

That places some urgency on players to not sit around, but go adventuring lest they use up all their treasure. But it's hardly onerous. For the life of me, I have no idea why that amount goes up with XP total. Is it Class ability maintenance?

I think this cost is meant to simplify living costs, food, housing, etc. I understand that makes things easier. For me, that takes away some of the game. I do not use this particular mechanic.

Yeah, my bad. It's 27.5 at level 2 having 2750 XP.
But like you point out, the escalating cost is going to become pretty demanding.

[howandwhy99]

My bad, lots going on here.

I think the game actually requires more amounts of game time to advance each level. So even a 1% of all GP every month becomes many more months and an overall larger percentage at higher and higher levels.

[tetramorph]

I exact up keep once per new XP accrual, based upon that accrual (not cumulative XP) alone.

I've hiked it to 10% as "encouragement" for getting out there and founding their own barony / tower / mission and cut out that overhead.

It covers sharpening weapons, fixing and polishing armor, replacing pages in spell books, buying a fancier set of clothes, paying for their increasing enjoyment of the advenurer's "lifestyle," etc.

I also remind all clerics that they must tithe or lose their spells and turns. I ask if other characters tithe, or if clerics give more, noting that it might be good to be in good with the church if they ever need scrolls or raise dead.

[retrorob]

I stick with 1% of XP on the monthly basis, so a character with 126 571 Experience Points has to pay 1265 GP a month. It covers taxes and basic expenses: food, clothing, accomodation, repair costs and so on. PC must pay additional GP for rumors/information/legends, identifying items, bribes, extra rations etc.

I like this rule - PC have motivation to go after treasure and we don't waste time roleplaying daily routine. Obviously I use it only when PC live in a civilized area for some time.

[aldarron]

Ah, we have another thread discussing this HERE

[talysman]

Apr 27, 2019 6:49:45 GMT -6 retrorob said:

I stick with 1% of XP on the monthly basis, so a character with 126 571 Experience Points has to pay 1265 GP a month. It covers taxes and basic expenses: food, clothing, accomodation, repair costs and so on. PC must pay additional GP for rumors/information/legends, identifying items, bribes, extra rations etc.

I like this rule - PC have motivation to go after treasure and we don't waste time roleplaying daily routine. Obviously I use it only when PC live in a civilized area for some time.

Apr 27, 2019 13:35:37 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Ah, we have another thread discussing this HERE

There's a link to my blog in the other thread, because I was posting something on that topic around that time, but no direct link to any blog post... so I'll summarize a couple quick rules of thumb I came up with:

• Half the monthly cost is taxes, the rest is actual expenses.
• Expenses include food and other needs in town. You only have to pay for adventure supplies on an item-by-item basis.
• If you are "just passing through" or just moved to a new area, you have to pay for everything item by item again until you earn 100 XP in that area, exactly like a new 1st level character. Then, you start paying full upkeep costs.
• Upkeep includes some kind of residence. You have a number of rooms equal to half your level, round down, unless you opt to pay for more. 1st level types share with somebody.
• I originally suggested that you have a number of servants in your household equal to 1.5 x number of rooms, but I think I'd lower it to one servant per two rooms, again rounding down. Their pay is included in upkeep.

[countingwizard]

The easiest and most effective way I have found to implement upkeep is that characters must pay 1% of their XP (rounded up) in gold, at the beginning every session, or every in-game week (if multiple weeks pass), as long as the prior week was spent resting. Upkeep covers every need for that character, such as arms/weapons maintenance, housing, food/drink, mounts; needs increasing the more experience that a character has.

Instead of tracking hitpoint recovery separately using the super long recovery rules, I allow a full week of rest to fully recover all hitpoints.

So 1 week of rest = 1 week of upkeep.

Any time I need to track monthly costs, I use real life months instead of in-game months.

[scottyg]

The game assumes that when PCs reach name level, they are going to possess enough gold to build a stronghold. That's probably 150,000 - 200,000 GPs or more? If the PCs aren't on pace for this, you're either not giving enough treasure, taking too much away, or both, compared to what the game expected. Monthly seems to be the option that works best with this expectation.

[dicebro]

Just goes to prove that there is something in this game for everybody! Including the accounting nerds. Heh.

[rsdean]

Nov 17, 2020 5:06:25 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Just goes to prove that there is something in this game for everybody! Including the accounting nerds. Heh.

You want to play Traveller, though, to really satisfy your inner acoounting nerd.

I did once develop a whole set of coinages for the various kingdoms in my game with divisions based on historical fractions like 1:16, 1:12, and 1:8 rather than decimals. Needless to say, it was too complicated ever to actually use. Unfortunately, if it’s still around, it isn’t in the big binder of old D&D material...

[dicebro]

I had to stop taxing the characters in my current campaigns. . I just assume they pay it and let them tally up their fortunes as they go. If I had more time, then it may be different.

[Red Baron]

There are plenty of things to spend money on without charging a % upkeep. Basic upkeep should be very low, so that players can use money to instigate adventure (purchase horses and carts, ships, troops, construction).

Basic Upkeep:
Groceries per week 5 coins (M&M)
Room (for 2 persons) per week 2 coins

Extras:
Retainer paid to keep hirelings from seeking other employment 10 coins
Henchmen upkeep per week 100 coins per level

Note these are in addition to regular payment.

Activities:
Round of drinks 10 coins yield 1 in 6 chance for rumour, 1 in 6chance for 1 to 6 hirelings 1-2 porter 3-4 linkboy 5-6 soldier.
Advertising for soldiers 100 coins 4 in 6 chance for 1 - 100 men. 1-4 infantry, 5 mounted, 6 special.
Advertising for henchman 4 in 6 chance for a henchman 1-3 1st level, 4-5 2nd level, 6 3rd level.

Things to buy:
Hunting dog 25 coins (1-6 hp)
Potion for a first level spell 250 coins and 1 week
Scroll for a first level spell 100 coins and 1 week

Frivolities:
Girls per week 10 coins or as per CSIO

[retrorob]

- 1 GP per person for each day spent in a city (food & room)
- capitation tax: once a year 10 GP per person
- tithe: once a year 20 GP per person

"support and upkeep" on a monthly basis 1% of min. XP cap, so 1st F-M pays nothing, 2nd level: 20 GP, 3rd: 40 GP and so on.

[countingwizard]

Aren't tithes more of an abrahamic religion thing? I mean obviously it was another name given for paying taxes to support government, but it would have been impractical to pay a monetary tithe towards every temple and god available to worship; most people worshipped more than one.

As I understand it, that's why most people left offerings of different objects at respective altars when they went to ask for big things.

[retrorob]

Well, I guess it depends how you treat religion in your campaign, right? I have only one Church of Christian God (I believe it's a default religion in OD&D), so tithes fits this pseudo-medieval setting.

[Vile Traveller]

I consider it the price of maintaining an appearance commensurate with their growing fame. More XP = more expensive clothes, accommodation, wine, pets, "companions". I tend to be quite generous with treasure, so it's not too onerous while remaining a useful money sink.

[tdenmark]

Nov 18, 2020 8:05:22 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

Aren't tithes more of an abrahamic religion thing? I mean obviously it was another name given for paying taxes to support government, but it would have been impractical to pay a monetary tithe towards every temple and god available to worship; most people worshipped more than one.

As I understand it, that's why most people left offerings of different objects at respective altars when they went to ask for big things.

Semantics.

Tithes, gifts, offerings, supplication. Whatever sounds best for your world. Pretty universal concept.

[countingwizard]

Tithes are a requirement to be a part of the community. But adventurerers are transient. I would think the only time they would give money to a religious order is in exhange for an equally valued service.

[tetramorph]

Nov 23, 2020 8:55:15 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

Tithes are a requirement to be a part of the community. But adventurerers are transient. I would think the only time they would give money to a religious order is in exhange for an equally valued service.

Raise dead. Access to clerical spells for clerics.

[scottyg]

It's an abstract game mechanic for removing gold from the PCs coffers. It wasn't meant to be quantified. It's everything else. It's sharpening a sword, removing a dent from armor, repairing a boot heel, mending a hem, etc. It's all of the daily expenses that won't come up in a fantasy adventure game so you're not stuck playing Papers & Paychecks. If there's some important in game reason for it, like retaining the favor of the local temple, then it should probably be on top of this.

[tdenmark]

Nov 23, 2020 8:55:15 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

Tithes are a requirement to be a part of the community. But adventurerers are transient. I would think the only time they would give money to a religious order is in exhange for an equally valued service.

You're looking at this with a 21st century mindset. People in the past* were much more superstitious, so would consider appeasing the gods to be of some importance.

How much more so in a fantasy world where the gods are real? And their power is manifested regularly.


*many still are

[hamurai]

Nov 23, 2020 11:32:57 GMT -6 scottyg said:

It's an abstract game mechanic for removing gold from the PCs coffers. It wasn't meant to be quantified. It's everything else. It's sharpening a sword, removing a dent from armor, repairing a boot heel, mending a hem, etc. It's all of the daily expenses that won't come up in a fantasy adventure game so you're not stuck playing Papers & Paychecks. If there's some important in game reason for it, like retaining the favor of the local temple, then it should probably be on top of this.

This.

And don't forget the carousing, the ... amusement, whatever it may be for the individual ... . And maybe there's a tax for adventurers, so there's no chance that "murder hobos" enter town and start upsetting everyone, but "wealthy" adventurers who can fill the town's coffers and pay the various services they require. Those without cash will have to wait outside.

[Deleted]

You know, in the past I've been really keen on this tax as it's a needed gold-sink, but as time goes by I'm wondering if maybe I don't prefer something like giving bonus xp for carousing or class-appropriate spending, which are common enough house rules. Reason I say is that the 1% tax seems both arbitrary and somewhat infringing on character free will. It's the same problem I have with the Geas/Quest spells and other things that pretty much force players to make certain decisions. I appreciate the thematic callback to Appendix N stories, but I feel in a collaborative game based on free will and choices, these gall to some extent. As a player I certainly object to being told by the referee what my character is doing or feeling. That's not your purview, that's mine. I try to keep that in mind when I referee. "Wait, this isn't any fun for me when I play, so why would I impose it on others?"

[scottenkainen]

The 1% rule makes an assumption that has seldom been true in any of my campaigns, that the PCs are living to the highest standard they can afford. My players almost always watch their expenses more than that (which I think is odd, because I don't think I'm *that* stingy with treasure).

Therefore, I houseruled a table showing how much it costs to live at each social class, and let the PCs choose from week to week which social class they want to live as. Though, with few exceptions, they choose lower middle class all the time, which costs only 5 gp per week.

[hamurai]

At times I've ruled that higher living standards make for faster HP recovery. I don't remember exactly what the daily and weekly costs were, but it was basically "pay double to heal double". So, if you payed 5 times the normal cost for the week, you healed 5 times quicker. After a while, we toned it down a bit so it didn't just feel like a time acceleration spell, each multiple of the cost would increase healing by the factor 0.5, so if you payed 5 times the normal cost you healed 3.5 times as fast (basic healing factor 1 + 2.5 from the higher cost).

I remember it working quite well, alowing players a new way of time and resource management. When time was of the essence, they still had a chance to heal up quickly by paying more, if they decided it was worth it. It was a money sink, too.

The higher cost reflected healing services, a select healthy diet, stuff like that.

It wasn't meant to permanently increase upkeep costs, though at higher levels after a tough beating it certainly felt like it when the characters had to stay low for a longer time to heal up completely.

[Piper]

Nov 28, 2020 0:19:15 GMT -6 hamurai said:

At times I've ruled that higher living standards make for faster HP recovery.

I like this idea! I may have to use it IMC.

[hamurai]

Give it a try

That idea actually came up when some of my players started plotting the kidnapping of a duke's physician and healer to get access to better healing services. The rest of the group argued that there actually aren't any rules describing faster healing because of better treatment (except magic, of course). We discussed this and I came up with that idea.

[countingwizard]

My in-game explanation is: The more competent, experienced, and renowned characters become, the more high maintenance they become. Ex: gambling more, more extravagant living, etc. These aren't necessarily things controlled by the player; and it also explains why sometimes the random events I periodically roll for, are determined by actions of the character rather than the player. Characters have their own personality. You can't be in control of them the entire time. It's also why players can typically have a stable of characters in my campaign, even though I usually limit play to one character at a time.

But I really like carousing for extra XP if the games are more infrequent (like monthly). It's a really fun mini-game.