How do your MUs acquire spells?

[tetramorph]

I know I've seen a thread on this before but, well, here goes. Please help me out. Some of this comes from other threads, for example, one with Falconer commenting about varieties of spell lists.

When I returned to the hobby about 4 years ago the campaign I joined had it simply that a lvl1 MU got their lvl1 spell book free (from the guild, from the master, whatever). Thereafter you had to purchase it according to the price as described in the LBB: so, e.g., lvl2 4Kgp.

Now, when I use Mr. Josh Bear's random ref tool it lists MU spells, not spell books. As if they have only discovered or researched a certain number of spells. As if spell books are not available.

I've also read people explain, in a Vance Dying Earth kind of way, how magic is rare and MUs trick and kill each other over the acquisition of even a single spell. Thus spells are hard to find. You buy a blank spell book. You search in a dungeon. You find a scroll and you carefully carry it out to add it to your spell book. Something like that.

In another thread Scott Anderson mentioned how different MUs have different flavor because each MU has different spells. Really? But if they are all just buying spell books as they level, then they all have the same spells.

I feel like I am doing something "wrong" here. Where "wrong" just means: not as much fun as we could be having.

Another worry: if I introduce this I will be accused of "nerfing" the MU (again!).

So how do you run it? Is it clear from the rules (because it is not clear to me)?

How do you make it clear to players how to successfully play it this "rare spell" way? How do you encourage them?

Thoughts? Advice?

Fight on!

[scottyg]

Like many aspects of the game it evolved over time. And there really isn't one answer. The way I do I for OD&D: You start with 2 spells, read magic and a choice, and a spell book. According to Ernie BTB would be just one spell. Each time you level you get one spell, a freebie. Each new spell level you'd also get a free book to put those spells in. The cost for these spells and books would be covered by the monthly expenses a character pays. Any other spells added, found on scrolls or researched, would cost gold to add. Back up spell books would also be extra

[Scott Anderson]

Four spells to start. Everyone gets read and detect magic. Human MUs get to choose two more and Elf MUs roll randomly.

Spell books are 36 pages each. They are super expensive even before the first spell is inscribed. Each one can only hold up to 13 spells and all of them have to be the same level. That's just how it works.

Buying spells is ok. They are expensive. But someone in town usually knows some magic spell or spells.

Finding a particular spell can be hard. You have to find someone who has it and convince them to sell it. And as you go up in levels the number of wizards of that level goes down and down.

But scrolls drop a lot. I like throwing scrolls at the players because they have to decide whether to use the firepower to get out of the dungeon or to save it to transcribe later.

Making scrolls is moderately expensive but super powerful.

I can't remember a magic user player ever asking for any more detail than that.

[howandwhy99]

I'm more Scott Anderson than Scottyg. This is actually a good bit of the Magic-User's game, learning spells that is. It's a whole big process for me, but it is quite flexible and allowing for customization by the players. I actually request the use of a notebook/spellbook by the player to keep their spells in during play. Because there are also notes from players learning more spell uses due to creative casting.

Magic items and magical areas, OTOH, are purely note taking. Not in game resource spending necessary.
(Though thinking about it, I might require "writing expenses" for extensive notes. Especially if they wanted to publish a "Treatise on the Iron Bands of Bilarro" or something.)

[hamurai]

We use the INT table from Greyhawk to determine the "Minimum # per Level", which decides the number of spells the MU starts with. Depending on INT this means from 2 to 8 spells at first level. This represents the learning during apprenticeship and how easy magic comes to the character. Read Magic and Protection from Evil are a must for all who dabble in the arcane arts. The rest is up to the player.

Starting at character creation on level 1, each time a MU gains a level, they gain a free spell (1st level is already in the starter spells) and decide researching another spell. The character decides on the spell and when their MU levels up they finish the research of the chosen spell and copy it in their spell book. They may change some visuals of the spell to make it their personalized version. They cannot change the spell they research as it would be too time-consuming and they couldn't research another until they level up.

Most spells come from scrolls or tomes they find on their adventures. Sometimes they get the chance to learn a spell from a spirit or demon, though. A fire elemental might teach them Fireball, an air elemental Levitate, other spirits may be able to teach them any spell.

<Edit: Spells of lower levels can be bought, too. Spells of levels 3+ are very expensive, if available at all, and might require a quest for the wizard who writes the scroll for the MU personally.>

I have used rituals in my game which I sometimes allow for any class if role-played in a certain way, and MUs are the ones who can learn pretty much any ritual because, hey, it's magic and it's what they do. Rituals require special (and often costly) requirements to be met, be it a constellation or moon phase, a sacrifice of some sort or a deal with a spirit/demon and a quest to get the payment for the deal.
Rituals can be quite powerful and I have allowed casting higher-level spells as rituals before the MU would be able to cast the spell. For example, my players wanted to Contact a Higher Plane (5th level) for advice and since it would fit nicely in the campaign I allowed them to quest for the spell. They traveled to an ancient ruin, discovered a ritual site on top of a temple and fought their way through the temple (inhabited at that time by vermin and a demon). In the temple they retrieved two magic candles (which they knew from a relief at the ritual site were needed to cast the spell safely) and returned to the top of the temple. One of the magic candles they used right then to do the ritual. The other characters guarded the MU against some remaining monsters while the MU prepared the ritual site and the player elaborated on how his character was doing that. Then he cast the spell and they got their answers. I halved the insanity chance because of the great preparation and how well the player explained how the ritual worked.
The remaining magic candle he took with him for some future use, if it may come up.

Long story short, you see how it doesn't have to be a permanent spell in the book all the time. In the above case, all players felt like they managed to cast that spell together and were proud of it. They never returned to that temple and used the second candle for another ritual but it was a possibility they enjoyed to have. I got to give them clues for the ongoing campaign and got a "free" one-session dungeon crawl from the players' endeavors.

[Scott Anderson]

Ritual casting. Hmm. Let me think about this.

[foxroe]

I do it exactly like scottyg does it, but all of these ideas are valid.

As you hinted at, there is no clear "rule" laid out in the three LBB's, so it's up for interpretation. As mentioned, Greyhawk added some "chance to know" rules, but that's another can of worms. AD&D has pretty clear rules about spell acquisition in the DMG. I can quote them if you would like if you don't have the DMG.

[waysoftheearth]

I've kicked around a few ideas over the years. One I keep coming back to is letting a M-U's number of starting spells be equal to the number of langs known due to intelligence. The first spells is always read magic, then I'll dice for the rest. A duplicate roll produces a freeeee spell scroll.

Another one I like (but requires a bit more effort) is to invent obscure and mysterious (?) names for the spells. Some examples:

The Mellifluent Concord
Yizmund's Unlikely Rorqual
The Schlemiel Disquiet
Mizzlebrume
The Zeligneous Perterbation
Epifinication
The Exigent Secernment
The Dissumulation
Etc.

Only when a player learns (a.k.a. "unlocks") a spell (via starting with it, or using a read magic on a scroll or spellbook) do I reveal the human-readable spell name and the spell description to the player. At this point I assume the player can add the spell to one of his spells books (one spellbook per spell level). Possibly, there should be a limit to the number of spells in a spellbook, but I haven't really worried overly about it.

I also let/encourage M-U players to invent one new spell each level; the output of their presumed ongoing "research". They also have to name it after their PC. E.g., Lluewen's Eerie Lambent. If the player is too lazy to invent something, they just miss out 'til next level.

Hope that's useful

[tetramorph]

All this is very useful, scottyg, Scott Anderson, waysoftheearth, howandwhy99, hamurai, and foxroe. Thanks.

Even admitting differences there is a general approach y'all seem to share.

As I work out my way, I'd still like to follow the written rules as much as possible.

So here are some things still bugging me:

For the new spell an MU gets per level (the "freebie," or the one assumed to be paid for by upkeep costs) is that random, or by choice?

If random, do you fill out the level one spells before progressing to level 2, even if they are capable of level 2 at that point? Etc.? In other words, how random is your random?

Does an MU have to pay the full research cost for a new spell on one of the lists with which he is familiar? (That is to say, one of the spells most players know because they are listed in the rules and the cat is out of the bag and all my players have copies of the rules at this point!) Or only for a brand-new, never-before-heard-of spell? If research is only at the full listed cost for brand-new spells, what do you "charge" for researching an additional spell known from the lists?

Does finding a potion or other magic item aid towards researching that spell? Half cost and time?

M&M p. 34 says that entire spell books of a given level cost the same as researching a single spell of that level. Now, I get that what this means is the creation of a duplicate book of already known spells of that level. I presume this is so that if your book gets fire-balled in a dungeon then you still have one back at the old hollowed-out tree stump that your crazy MU calls home.

But here is what I cannot figure out at all: "Loss of these books will require replacement at the above expense."

What? Procyon the Amazing has a level 2 spell book. He has all known (listed) level 2 spells at this point. Oh no! Down it goes into Orcus bath tub drain on level 4 of the dungeon! So now all Procyon needs to do is find a big town or friendly wizard, pay 4Kgp and he is back in business? That seems odd to me.

Perhaps the "above expense," means not the expense of a duplicate spell book, but the expense of the initial research in the first place. "Above," here, would indicate the above headings "Magical Research." Do y'all get my quandary? Thoughts?

Thanks for all the help, folks! Fight on!

[darien]

In my OD&D games, Magic-Users aren't defined by one specific style of magic (though for simplicity's sake, the core mechanical rules for spells are fairly Vancian, same as they are in the core rules) and arcane magic can be learned many ways. There are three forms of Magic-Users, though they are essentially the same in terms of raw mechanics. The three forms of arcane magic are Magery, Sorcery, and Witchcraft.

Magic-Users who practice magery advance their arcane abilities and gain spells through meditation and academic study of scrolls, grimoires, occult texts, and spell books.

Magic-Users who practice Sorcery are born with innate magical powers that improve through a mix of age and life experience (which is why you'd get more spells as you level up).

Magic-Users who practice Witchcraft gain their spells when they make a pact with a otherwordly patron (can be a demon, a faerie noble, an alien overlord from a far away planet, or even one of the Great Old Ones) and over time, your patron awards you more spells as you level up.

While those who practice magery or sorcery have little to fear as they gain power and more spells, practitioners of witchcraft fear for their souls at higher levels as such great power often comes with a great price. Once you reach a certain level, your patron starts to demand more of you and these demands increase at each level. Fail to meet them and you will be dragged away to the home of your patron, whether it be Hell, Arcadia, R'lyeh, or the home planet of an Alien Overlord and the player must make a new character.

As for mechanical differences, all Level 1 Magic-Users get two spells automatically instead of one (one is Detect Magic and the other is the player's choice) and if they have a high Intelligence score, they get a number of bonus spells equivalent to their Intelligence Modifier.

[howandwhy99]

Here is how I would answer your questions:

Spells from Advancement
I allow "any" meaning new level spells may be custom (so truly any). But learning the spell is still a random die roll.

Players may learn any spell up to the highest spell level achieved. If they attempt to learn lower level spells, I allow for more learned. (Potentially, spell learning is still required.) This includes mixing and matching, since 2 of "highest level" are learned each advancement. (This only applies after reach spell level 2 and above. I don't use 0-level spells.)

Spell Research
Men & Monster spells are the default spells in the surrounding magical world. These could be added to or taken away from depending upon the campaign. New spell research means spending time and using materials. This includes duplicate research (think replication studies). It's cheaper to befriend someone with the spell.

Studying cast spells, magic items, magical special abilities, et cetera can help the player to understand magic. It does not lower the cost of research.

Spellbooks
Spellbooks are not spell research notes, materials or even fully written research books by the magic-user. Spellbooks are personal works for fast preparation of learned spells. Lose a spellbook and you can recreate it from your research materials, costing time and materials of course. Procyon will need to go back to his research works to recreate his spellbook.

FWIW, it is a good idea to spend the costs for a duplicate spellbook and keep it in a Leomund's Secret Chest (for example). Though it too would need to be updated to stay current. Why again are all those Write and Erase spells useful?

[howandwhy99]

Jul 25, 2017 8:50:20 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Perhaps the "above expense," means not the expense of a duplicate spell book, but the expense of the initial research in the first place. "Above," here, would indicate the above headings "Magical Research." Do y'all get my quandary? Thoughts?

Still thinking about this, as I obviously don't go BTB.

I think Gary is giving separate prices for duplicating the books. The charge for the original books must come through magical research costs.

"Loss of these books will require replacement at the above expense."
I think Gary here is painting with a wide brush. If duplicate books are lost, the expense is "above" in the same paragraph. If all books are lost, the cost is "above" under Magical Research. Which I'd assume also requires weeks of research.

That books are required to be replaced? I'd only guess because books are required to be a M-U.

[foxroe]

One of the things about the original game that I've learned to appreciate is the terseness of the rules and the language of the wording (its "charm", if you will). The authors (and most of the players I believe) were experienced war gamers and had been playing around with D&D for a couple of years before its initial publication, so there is a built in assumption that the gist or spirit of the RAW would be obvious to gamers with similar gaming experience. I think when you approach the rules with this in mind, you will find that the simplest/easiest interpretation is usually the most "correct" (I use that term loosely). This of course is only my opinion, but since I'm of a similar mindset (I enjoy playing as close to BtB as possible... and I like uncomplicated, manageable rules) I'm hoping that this will be of some help.

[hamurai]

The free spell on level-up is player's choice from the list of spell they are able to cast or will be able to cast once they hit next level. They start "researching" the spell ahead of time. For example, when a MU gets to level 2, they start researching a spell from level 1 or 2 (as they'll be able to cast it once they hit level 3).
The researching of this free spell is entirely free of charge, we assume it happens along the way and is a mix of understanding and trial and error while adventuring. Just an excuse to let the MU have a new spell when they get to the next level, really.

When their spellbook is destroyed, they can write a new one with the spells they still have memorized - the other spells are lost. That's why one or more copies of a spellbook are a good idea - and this adds a little to the wizard paranoia which we enjoy at our table, because other wizards try to get hold of the copies to get their hands on new spells. We've never had a wizard lose all their spells, though. Once they know how it works, they keep backups and scrolls hidden at the oddest locations (ever wondered why you would find some monsters in possession of a spell scroll?) and they take great pains to ensure their spellbooks are well protected against all sorts of damage. I like that because I think the spellbook really should be the most important and priceless MU item.

[tetramorph]

Thanks darien, Scott Anderson, howandwhy99, foxroe scottyg, waysoftheearth, and hamurai. I've outlined some guidelines for this kind of approach for my campaign and I've shared it with my co-refs and they are copacetic.

It has made me think now, however, about clerics. Do you guys run your clerics the same way? A similar way? A different way?

Warning in advance: I let clerics cast on the fly -- no memorizing! But, remember, there are no clerics in Vance, so I am still kosher.

But, otherwise, how about the acquisition of spells? Can clerics make scrolls? Bless clerical items?

One things that I love about this approach to MUs is that suddenly there is a clear MU game: find spells. What is the cleric "game"?

(This actually came up at a game recently where I had some new players. They avoided some crypts and one guy playing a cleric said, at one point, "I just don't know how to play this character." I want to avoid that in future.)

[foxroe]

I've always had Clerics pray/meditate/commune with agents of their deity/study scriptures to "memorize" their spells. It's simple with out being hand-wavy. Also (not that I've ever seen it in action), it allows the DM to play the part of the deity (or agent) and refuse a requested spell based on the player's role-play as a Cleric - if he/she has been behaving "out of character" for a priest/priestess of said deity, why should the Cleric be granted that Raise Dead spell today?

[darien]

In my campaign setting for "The New World" campaign, not all clerics are clergy or employed by the Church. Rather, Clerics are extremely devout and dedicated worshipers who are blessed with divine magic by whatever higher power they believe in (sort of like True Faith in Vampire: The Masquerade). Cleric characters advance their spells through devotion and dedication to the tenets of their beliefs and aren't just limited to being granted spells from a deity.

Non-theistic religious people (such as Buddhists) can be granted divine magic through their faith and works, and the same can even apply to atheists and agnostics who are dedicated to a specific code of conduct or ethics (essentially being a cleric of their alignment).

I may also modify this concept and work it into my Chainmail Hearts campaign setting (a weird Arthurian-inspired OD&D setting)

[hamurai]

We've tried different approaches to clerics, but a houserule I remember which made sense to me is that a cleric would have to behave in a way which pleases their deity to gain a resource we called the deity's Favour. Favour combined spell slots, so if you had, say, 5 Favour you could cast a 3rd level miracle and either a 2nd or two 1st level miracles. You could never cast above what was allowed by cleric level, though. At least not without great effort. Just like my MU's, clerics could attempt to cast miracles as rituals by performing quests or by preaching to (and maybe converting) lots of people.
Favour was given out in 1, 2 or 3 points depending on how pleasing the deity would find certain actions. Praying and preaching to small numbers would gain 1 or 2 Favour once per session, 3 points would be defending the deity or its priests against danger, and so on. Recovering a sacred relic could earn more Favour, as did some quests in the name of the deity. Gaining Favour beyond what the spell slots "allowed" was tracked by the DM and sometimes when the cleric was in need of divine assistance the DM would check with the number of "excess Favour" to see if the deity helped, and how.
The cleric player would accumulate Favour to gain their spell slots as shown on the cleric table. Pious clerics could also in dire need cast a miracle and later do something to gain the Favour - but that was rare. I imagined the deity would not allow this on a regular basis.

It's not a perfect system and needed some book-keeping by the cleric player and the DM, but it was nice in that it pushed the cleric to behave more like we imagined a cleric. We had clerics who did the bare minimum role-playing their character's devotion; they would be left with only a few miracles per game session, if any.
The system worked for low-level clerics, but it's obvious that once you have more and higher-level spell slots, the cleric would be forced to constantly do something which would take up too much time at the table. Maybe building a shrine or temple could be used as a "Favour-machine" to produce some amount of Favour daily on a regular basis.

[howandwhy99]

For me, Clerics aren't Fighter/Magic-Users. They are an entirely different focus on the game. The third leg of the stool. Like each of the 3 core classes, they are adventurers. So, just as the others, clerics increase in abilities not pertinent to their own class, but other two as well (F-M & M-U). As adventurers they run into combat and magic challenges, but they handle each in ways particular to the focus of clericism.

What does this mean? Neither magic, combat, nor even spellcasting are the primary focus of the cleric. However they do cast spells of a sort. In their case, "magic" is the channeling of divine power and their spells are religious rituals. Their effects are nothing short of miracles. Clerics are capable of effects not possible within the Prime Material plane without a deity's intervention. No Magic-User could create these same effects (though some similar effects can be by alternate means). However, the scope of clerical spells are bounded by how applicable they are to Alignment.

My rules for Clerical Spells are largely BTB. Clerics receive a set of known divine spells every level after 1st. Even though the spell level clerics can cast only increases at even levels, Cleric gains more spells to their list every level after spellcasting is gained.

High Wisdom scores affect how many spells known are gained at different levels. Low Wisdom scores affect the chance of even successfully casting a spell.

The list is chosen by the Player. However, the particular spells on it also represent their religion, deity, philosophy, outer planar force in the world, etc. So if they are choosing from a religion already created in the game world, then the list may have already been semi-determined (or perhaps even fully determined if a player made the religion).

The spells gained list is also limited by particular Alignment. And, of course, limited by the focus of divine magic mentioned above. New spells (custom) are always acceptable, but I need to approve them in advance.

Switching out spells later is hard. This can be done through your deity or even by changing deities (which I don't take levels away for). Yes, you can change deities just as any player can change Alignment. A player could stay in their Alignment and simply change devotions. Or they could have a deity (the "Death" god) which spans alignments, but it must have different aspects not in harmony between each alignments.

ALL spells take a long time to cast unless prepared, just like M-Us. Players will typically want to prepare some beforehand. The particular preparations unique and up to the player, but are usually devotional. They all require at least 1 hour of focused activity on days meant to gain spells. And require a full day's rest to successfully prepare. Just like M-Us.

Religious magic items are not really created by Clerics so much as called upon by them from the Gods. Holy (and unholy) writings can be crafted, though not as powerfully as M-Us can at equivalent levels.

Jul 27, 2017 13:02:38 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

What is the cleric "game"?

Clerics play the Alignment game. Players seek to rebalance everything to their chosen alignment through the prism of their particular religion / deity / viewpoint (which I strongly suggest each player creates for themselves).

Each particular view the Ref fits into their measurable alignment system and tracks not only the PC's alignments, but how well they do in shifting the alignments of people and other stuff to their own.

[tetramorph]

howandwhy99, dig it.

So if the MU game is spells (finding, using, researching, etc.)

And if the CL game is alignment (keeping, converting)

How would you word the FM game?

Also, I see how the MU game increases MU power. How does the alignment game increase CL power? I don't see a direct connection to gp and XP like I do with MUs and spells. And, finally, when you give your answer for the FM game, please link it to their increasing power.

Thanks. I am enjoying and learning from this.

[coffee]

The FM game, to me, would be the acquisition of temporal power itself. You start as a veteran, become a hero, and some day hope to be a Lord. Then you can have land, armies, tax revenue, etc. Temporal power.

Somebody's gotta do it.

[howandwhy99]

Jul 28, 2017 6:56:44 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

So if the MU game is spells (finding, using, researching, etc.)

And if the CL game is alignment (keeping, converting)

How would you word the FM game?

This is all simply my interpretation. Gary assumed a lot of common knowledge from the reader, and even then...

Fighting-Men are the most obvious, most basic game: wargaming. D&D is for many the world's biggest tabletop strategy game. At least it's up there for the most rules laden. -- (or what would be rules)

For me, the F-M game is all about objective accomplishment in the militaristic sense: defense and offense, command and control. It's like a medieval wargame if the rules of the Prime Material plane always held true. Magic and Divine Power are the rule breakers here.

tetramorph said:

"Also, I see how the MU game increases MU power. How does the alignment game increase CL power? I don't see a direct connection to gp and XP like I do with MUs and spells. And, finally, when you give your answer for the FM game, please link it to their increasing power."

I see the magic-users more like scholars discerning knowledge about the arcane multiverse. And clerics seeking to rebalance the universe to their deity / alignment. Neither are power games.

Truthfully, D&D is not really a game about power acquisition, something players should realize by the time they're done. It's a game about roleplaying. Just roleplaying in the 1940s-1970s definition. D&D is all about mastering a social role like players master a game. System mastery = game mastery = role mastery. Each class offers a significantly different game to master than the others, though each one's system is connected within the overall. This is why each class is scored separately. Not to mention each player.

[tetramorph]

howandwhy99, I read you, and I appreciate the humility.

I am on-board with you at a broad level.

But at a practical level something all classes share is: gold = XP and XP = advancement with rewards such as HD increase and/or spell acquisition increase.

The joy of leveling is a large part of what motivates the player of any class.

You are right that the FM is the most obvious.

The magic acquisition of MUs makes them better able to explore and defend themselves, thus increasing their chance to gain gp and remain alive, thus they gain XP, thus they gain a level and thus they gain more power to explore, etc. It is a beautiful feedback loop.

How does your interpretation of the CL game have a similar feedback loop of: play game well, earn XP, have more power to play game well?

[Scott Anderson]

The feedback loop for any character is turning short-term resources like torches, hit points and game turn and into long-term resources like castles, armies and sixth-level spells. Each kind of man or demi-man has his own way to do that.

[howandwhy99]

Jul 28, 2017 14:59:20 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

How does your interpretation of the CL game have a similar feedback loop of: play game well, earn XP, have more power to play game well?

IMO XP for gold for all classes makes the game about one thing and one thing for everyone: treasure acquisition. I don't see that as supporting different roles. As an RPG gamer I prefer rewarding successful and yet diverse roleplaying. A game supporting multiple focuses of gameplay and goals for its players, then placing them in a cooperative design forcing people to learn how to work together in the face of orthogonal, even opposed personal objectives, is one of the truly awesome and unique features of Dungeons & Dragons.

So I reward XP based upon class/role mastery of unique subsystems within the game. Systems which require completely different styles of gameplay to master them. The more each player succeeds in their particular class, the more points they score. Achieving a level is a win. The reward is greater ability to face off against the next even harder level of the class's challenges.

This is the feedback loop for every class: Gain XP, get better PC abilities to perform the class, face off with improved random odds against class challenges, improve through play a player's role mastery in part by building on past expertise, gain more XP upon success.

The treasure game as really about leveraging stuff to help the player at their class game, mostly. There is no assumption of treasure at any level.

What specifically are clerics rewarded XP for? Changing stuff to their alignment. Lawfuls might destroy unholy relics, convince mobs to stop raging, gain converts to their faith, makes enemies into allies in the dungeon, exorcise the possessed, send devils back to hell, and so on. There are fewer opportunities altogether for them, less of a game to master. So less XP needed to advance.

[Porphyre]

Jul 27, 2017 19:01:27 GMT -6 darien said:

Non-theistic religious people (such as Buddhists) can be granted divine magic through their faith and works, and the same can even apply to atheists and agnostics who are dedicated to a specific code of conduct or ethics (essentially being a cleric of their alignment).

This was the later take on the cleric in the Mentzer BECMI edition. Clerics could officialy be dedicated to some impersonnal "higher cause", like their Alignment. 

In the other hand, Mentzer's setting didn't have gods, just "Immortals"

[aldarron]

Jul 28, 2017 6:56:44 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Also, I see how the MU game increases MU power. How does the alignment game increase CL power? I don't see a direct connection to gp and XP like I do with MUs and spells.

Cleric spells are "divinely given" as it says in Greyhawk Supp I. In Blackmoor, Arneson's solution to the "alignment game" was to require the cleric to give 40% to 90% of acquired wealth to the service of the Faith - either directly as offering or through projects like building monasteries etc. The idea being that XP would only by awarded on the wealth offered up. Anything the cleric kept for himself would not count for XP.

[aldarron]

Jul 25, 2017 8:50:20 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

....

As I work out my way, I'd still like to follow the written rules as much as possible.

So here are some things still bugging me:

For the new spell an MU gets per level (the "freebie," or the one assumed to be paid for by upkeep costs) is that random, or by choice?

Interesting questions and ideas popping up here.

Whether a spell is random or by choice is really up to you. If you are playing the game in such a way that an Mu has to either find or acquire the knowledge from another, then the new spell is simply chosen from what is available. IMC, an Mu would typically learn from a more experienced wizard at an agreed upon price. However, they recently acquired another Mu's spell books, and the PC Mu will be able to learn those spells through study of those books.

Jul 25, 2017 8:50:20 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

If random, do you fill out the level one spells before progressing to level 2, even if they are capable of level 2 at that point? Etc.? In other words, how random is your random?

I thought this was a really interesting question, and it made me think of some ideas Arneson mentioned in the FFC. He was describing his pre D&D alchemical magic system, but the principle would work just as well in the Vancian system too.

"Progression reflected the increasing ability of the Magic user to mix spells of greater and greater complexity. Study and practice were the most importsnt factors involved. A Magic user did not progress unless he used Spells, either in the Dungeon or in practice (there was no difference) sessions. .... So to progress to a new level, one first learned the spells, and then got to use that spell. There was no automatic progression, rather It was a slow step by step, spell by spell progression."

To apply that to your question I would say that an Mu must fill out their spell slots with spells of a lower level before they can add spells of a higher level. For example, a third level Mu (conjuror) has a total of 6 first level spells and 1 second level spell. I would say they would have to have found/acquired all 6 first level spells before they could add the second level spell to their repertoire. As they continue to progress, they could then add first and second level spells in whatever order. However, at Fifth level (Thaumaturgist) they could only add a third level spell after adding all 19 the first and second level spells indicated in the spell progression table. I'd rule these need to be individual spells (not duplicates) and if there is not enough spells in the standard lists then they need to research new ones.

Jul 25, 2017 8:50:20 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Does an MU have to pay the full research cost for a new spell on one of the lists with which he is familiar? (That is to say, one of the spells most players know because they are listed in the rules and the cat is out of the bag and all my players have copies of the rules at this point!) Or only for a brand-new, never-before-heard-of spell? If research is only at the full listed cost for brand-new spells, what do you "charge" for researching an additional spell known from the lists?

Does finding a potion or other magic item aid towards researching that spell? Half cost and time?

Btb, a potion or magic item would not reduce time and cost for new research. The researching magic rules only apply to spells being invented by the player for addition to a particular campaign. The spells already listed in D&D do not need to be researched from scratch. If, in your campaign, an Mu is unable to find a source for a spell already known to exist (because it is listed in the booklet), then you could allow them to research it if you like. <shrug>

[Starbeard]

Jul 29, 2017 6:16:54 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Jul 28, 2017 6:56:44 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Also, I see how the MU game increases MU power. How does the alignment game increase CL power? I don't see a direct connection to gp and XP like I do with MUs and spells.

Cleric spells are "divinely given" as it says in Greyhawk Supp I. In Blackmoor, Arneson's solution to the "alignment game" was to require the cleric to give 40% to 90% of acquired wealth to the service of the Faith - either directly as offering or through projects like building monasteries etc. The idea being that XP would only by awarded on the wealth offered up. Anything the cleric kept for himself would not count for XP.

The description for clerics in Men & Magic (p. 7) have one very strong perk regarding the high-level wargame: everything they build costs half as much, and their initial army is both free and fanatically loyal.

On the one hand, I can see this as the answer to tetramorph's question regarding the 'alignment game feedback loop'. In other words, play the alignment well and you too can rule a kingdom for tuppence.

However, these rewards are all tied to name level play, without anything to show for it up to that point, so it doesn't scale the same way the other class 'games' do, level by level. And, while we can certainly infer backwards from Gygax's later comments in AD&D about clerics and their gods, in OD&D I don't think there is anything that explicitly ties a cleric's successful roleplaying of alignment to his class abilities or rewards (even limiting xp gained to gold tithed is simply an economic transaction, and has little to do with roleplaying alignment).

Additionally, even if we do take Gygax's later clarifications to mean that Clerics inherently must make their gods happy by roleplaying their alignments well in order to gain their class benefits, this doesn't actually set clerics uniquely apart from the other classes. In those same clarifications Gygax also advised curbing rewards similarly for any player who played out of alignment; so in that case we must take the 'alignment game' as a universal theme, rather than particular to clerics.

Personally, I think think this discussion shows how tricky it is to neatly pin down any specific 'role' for the cleric (and the thief too, in my opinion). The functions and minigames of the two original classes are very easy to see, and they mirror each other very well regarding the overall xp game. The cleric, on the other hand, was an amalgam, one of the early game's several ad hoc character classes, though apparently the only one to garner enough lasting popularity in the group, and with Gygax and Arneson personally, to merit inclusion in the core rules. After all, what if the cowboy or the vampire made the cut into Men & Magic? What would their game be? I doubt the early players ever saw these classes as functions of an adventuring modus operandi, but merely as adding rules to roleplay a character type for the sake of it.

[talysman]

When I first started, MUs got all the spells listed, period. We didn't pay much attention to the idea of spells as actual equipment you could find, buy, steal, or make.

When I got into Holmes and later AD&D, I started using random assignment of starting spells and being more into the quest for new spells.

When I ran a pure OD&D game (LBBs only) a couple years ago, I started MUs off with all the 1st level spells in the book, with all later spells needing to be found or purchased. Large towns and cities have spellbooks with the commonly-known spells of each level available for purchase.

My current thinking is somewhere between the last two. Random starting spells, spells can be found, bought, or stolen, but not as punishing or complicated as the AD&D rules on spell acquisition. One important difference is my thinking on what a spellbook is: it might contain notes on specific spells, but it's mainly the resources needed to prepare spells: star charts, tables of correspondences, names and attributes of spirits. MUs do learn their spells permanently. They need a spellbook to prepare a spell for casting, but they don't need a specific spellbook, like one that includes Fireball, in order to prepare that spell. And Read Magic isn't necessary to read a spellbook; it's a shortcut for spell research, allowing MUs to learn spells on the spot or to decipher magical inscriptions to learn command words for an item.

So what I do when assigning 1st level spells is to roll 1 die, look it up on the 1st level spell list, and give the MU that spell and the next five spells on the list (6 total,) then roll 3 dice and look up those as individual spells on the list: if a spell is duplicated, drop it from the list of starting spells, and if it's new, add it. That gives 3 to 9 starting spells.

Two changes to this process that occurred to me just now:

1. I could allow random spells from each spell level as it is acquired, to represent spells acquired during research.
2. A simple way to use the Greyhawk or AD&D Intelligence table without going quite as far is to use the minimum number of spells in the table as the base number of starting spells in the first roll. So, Int 10 MUs get 4 spells in the order listed, Int 15 gets 6 spells, Int 3 only gets 2 spells.
   The number of dice used in the follow-up rolls (to provide variation) is Int/3, round down.

As for clerics, I assume they "cast spells" by commanding spirits in the name of their deity, which as I said before, makes their success or failure have nothing to do with whether their deity really exists or not. It's all about faith. So clerics don't roll for starting spells, and I would handle them very differently.