Eldritch Wizardry's Transmute Metal to Wood

[oakesspalding]

How is the spell to be understood, given the original text?

Transmute Metal to Wood: When this spell is used upon any metal it will permanently change it into some type of wood (saving throws apply). The amount of metal that can be transmuted is equal to a weight of SO gold pieces times the level of the druid. Affect area 1 square inch. Range: 6"

Specifically, what sort of saving throws did the author have in mind here - item saving throws, or, say, a save versus spells by the character in possession of the item?

AD&D would settle the question by modifying that part of the spell - the items/people are not entitled to a saving throw, but magic items get a sort of "super save" that succeeds 90% of the time.

But I'm interested in the earlier version of the spell.

Any thoughts?

[howandwhy99]

Are there item saves in OD&D? I thought those were added in AD&D.

I believe nothing but creatures receive saves in OD&D. But I could see using item saves. I do.

So if the item is in someone's possession, then they may opt to save for it - as odd as that sounds.

I believe Save vs. Polymorph has precedence here.

[Scott Anderson]

If the object is in someone's possession, I would have the person save versus polymorph. If not, I would have it save as a NM or as the level of wizard who might create it.

[oakesspalding]

Thanks!

So, there are item saves in OD&D (Monsters & Treasure, p. 38) but only for magic items.

In my view, here are the cons against the personal save interpretation (in terms of what it did mean and/or what it should mean):

1. The language is odd - "saving throws apply." Why the plural "throws"? This is different language from that used in Men & Magic or Greyhawk for granting the target a saving throw.

2. It's boring. There are so many spells where the target saves to avoid or halve the effects, etc. The spell would be more interesting if there were a different mechanic. And since the spell is technically against a thing, not a person, a different mechanic would make sense.

3. So, this is a 7th level Druid spell. Druids also have a 5th level spell, Finger of Death, which KILLS the target if it fails its saving throw. (Now, it's true that Druids are supposed to use Finger of Death only when their life is in danger but, I mean, when is it not?) So there's a 5th level spell that kills if a save is missed, but a 7th levelspell that turns a sword into wood (or whatever) if a save is missed. That seems silly. I'll take the lower level spell, please.

4. I had another one but I forgot.

Here are the pros:

1. There weren't published item saving throws in 1976, except those for magic items, but that category isn't really mentioned in the text of the spell. So it MUST be some sort of personal save.

2. It's simple.

[oakesspalding]

Jul 17, 2017 18:37:05 GMT -6 Scott Anderson said:

If the object is in someone's possession, I would have the person save versus polymorph. If not, I would have it save as a NM or as the level of wizard who might create it.

Sorry, Scott Anderson, I missed that last part. That's a great idea. But I'm stupid. What's a "NM" again?

[18 Spears]

Jul 17, 2017 20:51:00 GMT -6 oakesspalding said:

What's a "NM" again?

nromal man

[Scott Anderson]

"NM" could also be "F0" if you like. They are equivalent.

I should have added: Whether it would save as a high level magic user or as a normal man depends on whether it's magical or not.

[waysoftheearth]

Jul 18, 2017 2:25:42 GMT -6 Scott Anderson said:

"NM" could also be "F0" if you like. They are equivalent.

If this is OD&D, then the footnote below Attack Matrix I Men Attacking says: "Normal men equal 1st level fighters." (M&M p19). So normal men use the first column (as do all the 1st level player-types). Notice that there's no entry on Attack Matrix I for any 0th level types

[Scott Anderson]

Hm. That must be an artefact of B/X or BECM. I've always thought NM was a thing. Sorry!

[waysoftheearth]

Don't be sorry

Normal men got their own attack matrix in Holmes (see p18), but I'm not sure they were considered "0th level" at that point.

[howandwhy99]

Also, if it's a magical sword I believe it would save as the class and level of the intelligence within.

[hamurai]

For such a high-level spell I'd only allow magic items a save.
I agree that the plural seems a little odd, but I'd interpret it as "saving throws for all the items which do get a saving throw at all apply".

[talysman]

Right. It's plural because there may be more than one item.

I'd say the saving throw in this case is that of the character holding the item or otherwise in possession of it. If it's just an item lying on the floor, it gets no save.

It's true that some magic items get saving throws, but in OD&D at least, only a few specific items get such a save, and only versus fireballs and lightning, possibly against other destructive magic. There's no Save vs. Polymorph listed at the end of Monsters & Treasure.

I definitely would not give a magic sword the same saving throws as a PC. For one, because the item save table lists "magic weapon", so it's already covered, and in general, it's a worse save than it would get if you used a PC's save instead. For another, it makes it unnecessarily complicated, assigning a class and level to each sword. Unless you are adding your own magic swords with classes and levels, there's no way to determine level.

Artifacts with a class and (high) level, on the other hand, make more sense, and it's a good fall-back system for generating artifacts.