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Post by xerxez on Jul 8, 2017 20:22:43 GMT -6
I'm not sure where to post this question but here goes.
Hopefully Michael or another knowledgeable wargamer can help me with a historical perspective as I am getting nowhere on Wikipedia etc.
Long and short: a campaign hubcity that is tributary to a great City State; what sort of forces are they permitted to maintain? A militia I would assume? One with troop levels and activities overseen by the City State, perhaps by a garrisoned officer from there? And what would the leader of such a force be called? General? Warlord? What sort of controls would the City State institute beyond the obvious spies and stationed observers (ahem..advisors).
More questions: is it reasonable for a DM to to place a Citadel overseen by the tributary state (not it's masters) as a fort against the wilderness? I imagine the fort built in older times before the hubcity was tributary to the Citystate and then allowed to stand so long as the subject city was loyal because having such a bulwark serves the interest of the City State. But I would like some authenticity as the military structure of this all or at be pointed to some historical precedents.
I basically envisioned the Citadel as having a City State officer and a body of men-at-arms stationed as instructors/spies/advisors with a warlord or high commander of the trubute city's militia actually running the Citadel. Would this be whacked? Thanks for any info.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 21:56:57 GMT -6
Are you talking about a military garrison or to keep the civil peace?
I'd recommend a good book on Roman history. Medieval structures weren't very cut and dried.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 4:02:49 GMT -6
Are you talking about a military garrison or to keep the civil peace? I'd recommend a good book on Roman history. Medieval structures weren't very cut and dried. What he said; try Luttwak's book on the strategy of the Roman Empire: www.amazon.com/Grand-Strategy-Roman-Empire-D/dp/0801821584What you're describing is the method used during the later Republic of 'forward defense', where client states served exactly the function that you describe. They would provide garrisons and posts as needed, with 'advisors' stationed as needed; a 'ceremonial' garrison of the 'patron state' would often be stationed in the capital of the client state, both to keep things quite and to remind the client what ultimate suasion was possible in case somebody got ideas. |
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Post by xerxez on Jul 9, 2017 9:45:38 GMT -6
Thanks Michael and chirinbakal. Both answers are helpful. I was trying to write some of my city and wilderness areas down and was unsure on the best nomenclature for the military situation there.
After the demise of an empire, the lands eventually became the territories of several city states. They follow something along the lines of the Corinthian League loosely.
The specific area I mention is a very old city on the shores of a vast lake. It lies in the furthest edge of the shadow of one of the City States (which is situate on the sea) and the lake city is nominally independent, but their "independence" is granted under certain terms and conditions, i.e. yearly tribute, vows to commit their forces to the City State if called upon, etc. The pact also permits the the lake city to call upon the City State in time of great need.
The City State in question here is the one exception to the League because a statute of the League banishes slavery and this city is known for its slave markets (they sell the unfortunates by sea routes to lands where slavery is still common). Being powerful and having foreign allies, this city state has not been attacked by the states in the League but the opinion that it one day will be (if it does not attack first) is very common but that is still down the road from the date that the player characters enter the calendar.
To stay on point, I reasoned that the lake city would represent a valuable ally to the city state on the inland, as the lake city is no mean city but was once a central power in very ancient times and in fact there is a town on the other end of the great lake which is subject to the lord in the lake city whose warriors police the town. There are also scattered hamlets and villages that answer to the lake city.
Down shore from the lake city in its southern reaches is an old Citadel for watch and defence, as well as training for the lake city's militiamen/army. I have been informed by someone that if the city had a militia they would not have a citadel which is only for proper armies and that it would be unlikely that the City State would allow it. Also, I was informed that a militia is only called up for emergencies and is not a regular force. This person suggested I simply call the lake city men an army and use "normal" military structures.
Any suggestions on handling this arrangement in a manner that can lend it some authenticity is greatly appreciated and I will try to do some reading.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 12:06:13 GMT -6
Interesting. I have to wonder where the information about militia that your informant is coming from. 'Militia' forces are different from 'professional' ones due to their part-time status; the 'armies' of the Greek city-states, with the exception of Sparta, were all primarily militias, being called out in case of wars and for their training; they also, quite often, served in rotation to garrison posts like your Citadel. A militia company would report to the Citadel for it's training period, and garrison the place while working it's collective butt off. Milita is not as good as regulars, unless they get their act together, but they can be very useful - see also the South Carolina campaign in the American War of Independence, where they were used properly and with great effect - Daniel Morgan at Cowpens, for example.
Forts, fortresses, castles, and citadels usually had small in-place garrisons that usually consisted of pensioners or invalids (in the military sense, of course) or a man-at-arms and his personal retinue who were backed up by whatever regulars the nation-state could send in a crisis. Regular, full-time, and full-strength garrisons really don't come in until the end of the Lace Wars and into the horse and musket period, where fortified posts become major staging points and magazines for the field forces - you can thank Louis XIV for this - and so you get lots of accounts where the part-time garrisons are surprised and captured by resolute parties of adventurers.
You citadel is, most likely, a left-over from the days of empire, and garrisoned by the locals because there's always been a garrison there. (See also Edinburgh Castle.) So, they may not be the best troops around, and may be kinda useless for campaigning in the field, but I'd be cautious if I had designs on their citadel.
Plenty of historical examples of what you're describing, and pretty widely discussed in historical circles - mostly in the Ancients and medieval periods, admittedly - but if you need some quick rules I'd suggest Tony Bath's book on wargame campaigns.
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Post by xerxez on Jul 9, 2017 14:38:36 GMT -6
chirinebakal, I appreciate the comments. They are very insightful. I thought the model I had a workable one but felt I should reappraise it after I had this conversation with someone. Sounds like I had an okay arrangement, though. It may be "only D&D" but I do like my settings to have some consistency, and now that I am jotting some things down on paper, I wanted to get it right. I have some reading to do! This forum is like a Dwarven mine when it comes to gleaning knowledge! Thanks!
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Post by xerxez on Jul 9, 2017 14:43:48 GMT -6
Also, part of the campaign is that I wanted fighter types to be able to enlist in the militia if they wanted, yet not be as tied up as regulars so they could still adventure. With what you have said about militiamen this sounds plausible!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 15:15:57 GMT -6
chirinebakal, I appreciate the comments. They are very insightful. I thought the model I had a workable one but felt I should reappraise it after I had this conversation with someone. Sounds like I had an okay arrangement, though. It may be "only D&D" but I do like my settings to have some consistency, and now that I am jotting some things down on paper, I wanted to get it right. I have some reading to do! This forum is like a Dwarven mine when it comes to gleaning knowledge! Thanks! Understood. I was kind of baffled by the comments you got; I'm thinking that they had more recent kinds of militia in mind. What you're looking at - and I'm sure Gronan can help, here - is much more the kind of thing that the pre-Macedonian and Roman states used, as well as the early and middle medieval rulers used. Regulars, as we'd call them, are the province of wealthy and well-established states; one can try to get by with mercenaries, as both Persia and Carthage did, but you then either have to pay them or murder them. (Xenophon's "Anabasis" comes to mind.) So, I think you're on the right track, with a lot of historical precedent behind you. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 15:16:59 GMT -6
Also, part of the campaign is that I wanted fighter types to be able to enlist in the militia if they wanted, yet not be as tied up as regulars so they could still adventure. With what you have said about militiamen this sounds plausible! Which is a great way to ensure that adventures result. And the PCs can always call in their comrades for help in sticky situations, too! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 17:07:00 GMT -6
And of course once you hit the Merovingian period this all changes radically for the next several hundred years; the Magnus (Big Man) has his Puerii (Boys) as his personal retainers of a few dozen at most. Either the Liber Historiae Francorum or Beowulf would talk more about this.
And armies have changed again by the High Middle Ages with Scutage, 40 days owed service, feudal oaths, mercenaries, and castles.
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Post by xerxez on Jul 9, 2017 22:15:43 GMT -6
chirinebakal, I appreciate the comments. They are very insightful. I thought the model I had a workable one but felt I should reappraise it after I had this conversation with someone. Sounds like I had an okay arrangement, though. It may be "only D&D" but I do like my settings to have some consistency, and now that I am jotting some things down on paper, I wanted to get it right. I have some reading to do! This forum is like a Dwarven mine when it comes to gleaning knowledge! Thanks! Understood. I was kind of baffled by the comments you got; I'm thinking that they had more recent kinds of militia in mind. What you're looking at - and I'm sure Gronan can help, here - is much more the kind of thing that the pre-Macedonian and Roman states used, as well as the early and middle medieval rulers used. Regulars, as we'd call them, are the province of wealthy and well-established states; one can try to get by with mercenaries, as both Persia and Carthage did, but you then either have to pay them or murder them. (Xenophon's "Anabasis" comes to mind.) So, I think you're on the right track, with a lot of historical precedent behind you. I have read Homer and Thucydides (and Beowulf)--beyond this I have only watched documentaries and consumed very summary books ("Life in the Middle Ages" etc.) I did read part of Gibbons history as well but did not complete it. The rest of my understanding of such things I gleaned from fantasy novels and films. I also find National Geographic very enlightening, that's where I got my learning on Charlemagne. Thank you, I too felt the person was thinking of modern militia but said person is my own personal contrarian of whom I am quite fond and who also does have a college degree, so she gave me pause. She is also quite well read. I had some vague notions from various sources but knew that this forum was a good place to be instructed! I'm encouraged to continue with the material. I ran an 11 month campaign and the characters made 10th-11th levels and we stopped just short of the endgame, a climactic battle between the lake city forces and rebel units in the region that amounted to "bandits with a cause". I was getting engaged to marry and a player in my game was setting up his own campaign so we left off. However,I have talked to them and they are up for a wargame session to conclude the campaign. The campaign of which I speak was over 3 years ago. I have obtained some smaller scale minis and am preparing to craft a board for the showdown and hopefully we can see it through. Planning on using Chainmail rules for that event! |
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lige
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Post by lige on Jul 15, 2017 20:56:50 GMT -6
I'm thinking that late medieval/renaissance Italy would be a good place to look for some pretty analogous political situations. The various Italian city states were always taking one another over and there were a number of old fortifications that changed hands over time. Venice's possesions in the eastern Mediterranean could also be an interesting thing to look into.
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lige
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Post by lige on Jul 15, 2017 21:52:07 GMT -6
Following up on my earlier comment I did a little internet research and stumbled across this article which gives a nice overview of the military organizations of various actors in late medival/renaissance Italy - myarmoury.com/feature_armies_italy.html |
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