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Post by Scott Anderson on Jun 18, 2017 14:01:19 GMT -6
Has anyone played with a group who had never considered the ten foot pole? I had a marvelous game last night with a group that was dumbfounded when I said my guy wanted to bring a ten foot pole.
It came in handy twice, too.
What other common items have people you have played with never heard of?
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Post by Zenopus on Jun 18, 2017 14:31:48 GMT -6
Love the 10' pole ... so very useful:
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Post by magremore on Jun 18, 2017 14:40:50 GMT -6
Sorry, Scott, that this is not responding directly to your question, but given the subject title, hope you don't mind...
I soured on ten foot poles in dungeons a few years ago due to their size, but have been wondering about that lately, as the sample character Malchor in Holmes and the sample character sheet in Molday both include poles among their equipment. We certainly never questioned carrying them around bitd.
If it's not considered a thread jack (?), I’d be interested to hear thoughts from people on the use/allowance of ten foot poles in dungeons.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jun 18, 2017 18:46:41 GMT -6
Of course you can't use a ten foot pole if both hands are full so it is likely the thief guy (if you use thiefs) or the wizard guy will have it. That's good though because the thief should go ahead, and the wizard player can get bored.
In Mythical Journeys, I wrote that the ten foot pole has two static functions. One, it adds a +1 to a 1d6 roll for finding traps. Two, it automatically sets off any tripwires and finds any holes in the ground one square ahead of the user.
Of course you can still use it for any other things you can imagine.
Note: finding a trap is a 1-2 on 1d6, modified +/-1 by Wisdom. Searching takes a Turn per square regardless of the amount of surface. So a high wisdom and a pole or other tool allows a find traps roll of 1-4 on d6, a very reasonable chance.
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Post by tetramorph on Jun 18, 2017 20:09:33 GMT -6
No, I haven't experienced that, Scott. Standard gear for us folks.
I just use the 1:3 trap triggered rule. Some newbies I ran a while back were faithfully using their pole but not looking carefully. They came to a trip wire. Pole didn't trip it. First line didn't trip it. Second line did. I showed them my roles after so that they knew I was fair!
They liked the possible realism. Can't catch everything just tapping a pole!
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Post by Malcadon on Jun 18, 2017 20:13:19 GMT -6
Although nowhere as useful as rope, a 10' pole by itself has countless uses. When combined with other items — almost always with rope — you'll get some neat items: Two poles + rope + netting = TravoisPole + ropes + block & tackle = Gin PolePole + dancer + drinks = Fun Although, the real fun comes with players figuring-out new uses for things.
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Post by foxroe on Jun 19, 2017 3:27:50 GMT -6
Someone asked about dungeon-sticks over here. I quite like the accepted answer: Edit: Hmmmm... can't seem to locate any of the aforementioned Dragon articles...
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Post by magremore on Jun 19, 2017 5:51:49 GMT -6
I haven’t thought this through all the way yet, but... The pole in the B1 back cover art can be sized (without stretching) so that it is exactly 1 pica to 1 foot. Since the characters are more or less in a line / at roughly the same perspective, you could gauge their height by this. The magic-user is a bit more back than the others, so maybe plus an inch or two. This puts the dwarf at "about four feet tall" as mentioned in Greyhawk and Holmes, and puts the humans a little shy of the 5'6" average I usually figure them to be. (Not sure if I can post this image properly: drive.google.com/file/d/0BwJ3Sz0AyDzwUWJ0NEl0T29QdVU/view?usp=sharing)
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 19, 2017 6:22:34 GMT -6
Nice visual, magremore! I've often thought that 10' poles would be pretty unwieldy in twisty dungeon hallways, and your image helps illustrate that fact! (Actually, I was moving an 8' couch the other day and found that it was pretty hard to maneuver through my house. True, the pole is a lot thinner.....)
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Post by scottenkainen on Jun 19, 2017 9:40:55 GMT -6
The ultimate dungeon defense would be to move a couch in front of you. No one can get around a couch when it's being moved.
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Post by ritt on Jun 19, 2017 9:40:55 GMT -6
When I run games at cons I always like to throw one absurd or weird item into each pre-generated character's gear, hidden among the rope, torches, and iron rations: A sock monkey stuffed with catnip, a five-pound cannonball, a kilo of raw heroin, a pillowcase full of marbles, a bottle of drain cleaner, a live canary in a cage, a string of firecrackers, a wind-up toy monkey with cymbals... most players don't read their equipment list and don't notice, but the good ones do. Fun ruckus and wild schemes often result.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jun 19, 2017 10:05:03 GMT -6
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Post by ritt on Jun 19, 2017 12:22:35 GMT -6
Great article with some really fun ideas. Thank you!
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Post by jdn2006 on Jun 19, 2017 12:34:39 GMT -6
Who might use a 10' spear instead of a 10' pole?
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Post by Malcadon on Jun 19, 2017 12:56:30 GMT -6
Who might use a 10' spear instead of a 10' pole? Would a "10' spear" count as a pike?
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 19, 2017 14:33:47 GMT -6
The ultimate dungeon defense would be to move a couch in front of you. No one can get around a couch when it's being moved. I have to get that in my game sometime. DM: Your 18/72 strength fighter is... carrying a couch?
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jun 19, 2017 21:32:23 GMT -6
Hard to say where "pole arm" becomes "pike"
Where's gronan when you need him
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Post by MormonYoYoMan on Jun 19, 2017 21:57:39 GMT -6
Well I did have a DragonQuest character with an extremely tall sidekick named John Paul II, who was introduced alternately as a 10-foot Pole or a 10-foot Pope.
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Post by Malcadon on Jun 19, 2017 22:35:45 GMT -6
Well, it goes without saying that this guy is properly equipped for the task in at hand: I'm just keeping it classy.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jun 19, 2017 23:51:55 GMT -6
A spear would be different from a dungeon toothpick though. A spear is not meant to do a lot of things the pole is for.
How would you throw a 10' spear anyway? Maybe a 10' spear is really more of a lance.
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Post by DungeonDevil on Jun 20, 2017 6:06:31 GMT -6
I never have used one. I grant that it is deemed a curious, "classic D&D" type of thing to have along, but, too cumbersome. Just to irk a party that insists on using one, I thought, one day, I will design a dungeon with very narrow corridors, low ceilings, and cave passages with lots of tight, serpentine turns: a "daggers- and butter-knives-only dungeon". Heh, heh, heh...
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jun 20, 2017 9:36:56 GMT -6
I never have used one. I grant that it is deemed a curious, "classic D&D" type of thing to have along, but, too cumbersome. Just to irk a party that insists on using one, I thought, one day, I will design a dungeon with very narrow corridors, low ceilings, and cave passages with lots of tight, serpentine turns: a "daggers- and butter-knives-only dungeon". Heh, heh, heh... Why would a kobold build a dungeon big enough to be comfortable for a man anyway?
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Post by Starbeard on Jun 21, 2017 6:47:39 GMT -6
I never have used one. I grant that it is deemed a curious, "classic D&D" type of thing to have along, but, too cumbersome. Just to irk a party that insists on using one, I thought, one day, I will design a dungeon with very narrow corridors, low ceilings, and cave passages with lots of tight, serpentine turns: a "daggers- and butter-knives-only dungeon". Heh, heh, heh... Why would a kobold build a dungeon big enough to be comfortable for a man anyway? This is one of the most overlooked methods for designing dungeons, in my opinion. Players always gravitate toward the biggest and the best, and ditch the rest. Putting small areas in the dungeon isn't even a trick or a trap, but it still requires preparation and thinking ahead. Once the party is in the middle of the dungeon and has to set aside their backpacks, greatswords, longbows, 10-foot poles, maybe even their plate armour if they have to crawl and shimmy, they'll feel stupid for not bringing their knives and short swords along.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jun 21, 2017 15:00:09 GMT -6
Mike Mornard said a 10' spear is a two-hander but otherwise should function like a 10' pole.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 21:34:08 GMT -6
I don't feel especially strongly about this, but . . .
I've always thought the 10-foot pole was impractical. Characters are already lugging around a fair amount of armor, equipment, and weapons (usually enough to be a bit encumbered if the DM makes them track encumbrance), and they're going to lug around that pole in addition? It's unwieldy. Unless they are exercising ninja-like control over it (while trying to multitask; e.g, looking, listening, walking, communicating with the rest of the party), it will be banging around the walls of dungeon corridors, scraping along the floor, slapping anyone nearby in the marching order. It also seems like it could put its user at a disadvantage if surprised or if the party loses initiative the first round (because both hands likely would be needed to hold and use the pole, it would prevent use of a shield and prevent its user from having a weapon drawn, and there he is at the front of the marching order in all likelihood). It seems like all of the drawbacks of carrying around this clunky, oversized piece of equipment are hand-waived. It'd be like walking around with a polearm in the dungeon.
What am I missing?
Edited to add: Also the traditional line I hear players say with respect to the pole is that they are using it to tap the ground in front of them as they move down the corridor. So there they are tapping away in the dungeon like a blind man with a walking stick. How is that not a monster magnet?
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jun 21, 2017 22:18:15 GMT -6
A ten foot pole can be carried in one hand, tucked into the crook of your arm. I do think it precludes the use of a sword and shield, or a two handed weapon. But a thief guy and a wizard guy aren't using a shield anyway. For that matter, the wizard guy might have a torch in the other hand, I don't know.
You raise valid points. But in the underworld, the good guys can't surprise the bad guys anyway unless they all have darkvision. If they have a light they are already monster magnets.
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Post by Starbeard on Jun 22, 2017 2:23:03 GMT -6
Those are good points. I think it's still a useful tool though, if for no other reason than that there have been times when I've been hiking or exploring and been happy when I found a long skinny branch, taking it with me to test water depth or the sturdiness of a loose stone, help hoist myself up/down from a ledge, and so on. I think you're right that the impracticalities of the 10' pole are usually ignored; but I'd argue that the impracticalities of spelunking and fighting in armour and with 40-120lbs of gear strapped to your back are far more grievous, and those are ignored just as much. Personally I'd rather see all of those things affecting character decisions, but we all forget to account for encumbrance or light or noise here and there. It's also a good point you make about the noise the pole will make when dragging it around the dungeon. The game's stated move rate while exploring and mapping is so painfully slow that I figure whoever's holding the pole is being careful enough not to whack it against the walls or other people, but if they use it to prod ahead then yeah, it should make extra noise. So it's a tactical decision: are we more scared about possible traps, or more scared about advertising our presence to creatures who might otherwise not hear us? I'd also like to point out that it is technically possible and practical to use a shield with a two-handed pole arm, as long as the weapon is of the thrusting type. The Macedonian phalanx under Phillip II and Alexander used a heavy pike as long as 20ft, with a 2ft shield slung across the neck/shoulder like a guitar strap, and held in place by an arm strap. It limits manoeuvrability quite a bit, but as long as he doesn't get outflanked I see no reason a fighter can't use a slung shield and then wield a 10' spear to use both as a weapon and as a pole.
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