jeffro
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Post by jeffro on Jun 6, 2017 8:15:17 GMT -6
People interested in pulp fiction, Appendix N, and the early days of the rpg hobby will want to check out my latest interview post over at Castalia House blog. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 13:56:20 GMT -6
People interested in pulp fiction, Appendix N, and the early days of the rpg hobby will want to check out my latest interview post over at Castalia House blog. That is fantastic! |
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Post by derv on Jun 6, 2017 15:24:34 GMT -6
Ken St.Andre is a friendly and approachable guy. Actually, all of the Fellowship are down to earth and full of wit and wisdom. I believe both Ken and Liz were librarians in their 9-5 occupation. It would seem that they would be a good choice to ask about literature and where to look for inspiration.
Nice interview.
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Post by oakesspalding on Jun 6, 2017 17:33:24 GMT -6
I own have four issues of Sorcerer's Apprentice, but unfortunately, Ken St. Andre's fantasy/science fiction book list does not seem to be in them.
I asked Rick Loomis whether they would ever be offering PDFs of the magazine, and he said No. Apparently the original contracts/agreements with the diverse set of contributors did not include reprint or digital rights, and it would be too difficult to now obtain them. I find that annoying and depressing.
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jeffro
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Post by jeffro on Jun 6, 2017 18:16:57 GMT -6
Ken St.Andre is a friendly and approachable guy. He is an extremely gracious individual and I am grateful that he took the time to do this for me. |
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Post by jeffb on Jun 7, 2017 4:14:34 GMT -6
It seems like every time I have seen him do an interview over the years, he always has to mention Gary in a "less than positive" light. At which point I tune out of the interview and move on. This one was no different. He also caused a stir a few years back at a Con game playing D&D and being a @$)# about it.
He should stick to talking about himself and his own game (which I like), instead of being bitter.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 7, 2017 5:53:02 GMT -6
I own have four issues of Sorcerer's Apprentice, but unfortunately, Ken St. Andre's fantasy/science fiction book list does not seem to be in them. I have all of them and may search for the list if I have time. If I find it, I'll try to post it. Does anyone know which issue? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 6:48:16 GMT -6
It seems like every time I have seen him do an interview over the years, he always has to mention Gary in a "less than positive" light. At which point I tune out of the interview and move on. This one was no different. He also caused a stir a few years back at a Con game playing D&D and being a @$)# about it. He should stick to talking about himself and his own game (which I like), instead of being bitter. I don't know what you are talking about? He said "I never followed the pronouncements of the great Gygax." I did not read the Up On A Soapbox rants in Dragon Magazine until years later when I bought the collection of The Strategic Review and The Dragon/Dragon Magazine as I only had The Strategic Review and the first 6 issues of The Dragon until then. His AD&D rants would quite correctly be categorized as "pronouncements of the great Gygax" and were very nasty in tone and very anti-old school gaming, and had I read them at the time I would have ignored them and continued to play D&D the way I wanted. So I do not see that he is portraying Gygax unfairly and I do not see him being bitter. |
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Post by jeffb on Jun 7, 2017 7:20:07 GMT -6
It is snark. You know it. I know it.
Don't like Gary, fine. He is allowed to like/not like whom he chooses. No need to be snarky about it in every interview. Its unprofessional, and reeks of bitterness.
I also cannot understand why you would see "dude" as an insult in the context of that other thread, but here the veiled insult thrown out "the great" is not seen in that way??
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 8:08:26 GMT -6
It is snark. You know it. I know it. Don't like Gary, fine. He is allowed to like/not like whom he chooses. No need to be snarky about it in every interview. Its unprofessional, and reeks of bitterness. I also cannot understand why you would see "dude" as an insult in the context of that other thread, but here the veiled insult thrown out "the great" is not seen in that way?? Because dude is in fact a vile insult. As for "The great" have you ever read the anti-old school rants of Gygax in the Up On A Soapbox, where he says house ruling is wrong and altering the game to play it your own way is wrong. It is not a veiled insult, it is a direct insult that is fully justified by things that Gygax actually said and did, for which he rightly is condemned. There are things Gygax said and did for which he is to be commended and also things he said and did for which he should be condemned. To contend that he should only be praised for the good and that everyone should ignore the bad is ridiculous. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 9:57:59 GMT -6
Because dude is in fact a vile insult. Where do you get 'vile insult' from? Is it a regional thing? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 10:28:44 GMT -6
Because dude is in fact a vile insult. Where do you get 'vile insult' from? Is it a regional thing? You might want to dig a little deeper on the meaning of dude which will lead you to "a dandy - sarcasm for effeminate" and "excessively concerned with his clothes and grooming" and " stuck up person" and "clueless city-slicker" and "drug user". |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 11:48:28 GMT -6
You might want to dig a little deeper on the meaning of dude which will lead you to "a dandy - sarcasm for effeminate" and "excessively concerned with his clothes and grooming" and " stuck up person" and "clueless city-slicker" and "drug user". All of those things, excepting 'drug user,' are covered in the link. You shouldn't get mad at people using the word in the accepted modern context just because it meant something else half a century ago. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 12:31:11 GMT -6
You might want to dig a little deeper on the meaning of dude which will lead you to "a dandy - sarcasm for effeminate" and "excessively concerned with his clothes and grooming" and " stuck up person" and "clueless city-slicker" and "drug user". All of those things, excepting 'drug user,' are covered in the link. You shouldn't get mad at people using the word in the accepted modern context just because it meant something else half a century ago. We will have to disagree about that. |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Jun 7, 2017 14:26:28 GMT -6
My own first acquaintance with the word is through the popularisation of the term via Surfer/Valley Girl slang in the early '80s. However, I do believe there may be some lingering, fossilised 19th c. semantics (in, perhaps, the U.S. Deep South or Midwest), and there is a strong possibility of dialectal variation.
This kind of statement is going to require careful quotation from specific sources for me to believe it.
St. Andre's fun, humorous, free-wheeling style of game design and writing* is a breath of fresh air. For some who don't always favour a wargaming-based game-origin, and may, perhaps, be put off by the extreme granularity of AD&D's core rulebooks, T&T is a nice change of pace and shouldn't be written off as a mere D&D clone. As a long-time wargamer myself, I embrace that origin of D&D and have no problem with it, but since the early 80's explosion of D&D in the public consciousness, I had met a lot of gamers who had no knowledge of, nor interest in, wargaming.
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* As I've seen in Starfaring and various Tunnels and Trolls publications.
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Post by oakesspalding on Jun 7, 2017 15:11:40 GMT -6
As a sometime defender of Gygax, I completely agree with @theperilousdreamer about Gygax's obnoxious and egotistical side, especially those notorious Up On a Soapbox rants. It's always been unclear to me exactly what was going on there - probably a combination of things.
Ken St. Andre is definitely a nice and gracious guy. I can also attest to that. But like many of us, especially those of us who are passionate and opinionated about gaming, he does have a few foibles and ticks about a few things and people - Gary Gygax being one of them. Whatever you think of the rights and wrongs of it, it's pretty easy to understand.
In an interview, St. Andre said that he and Gygax had never once spoken. Indeed, they had never so much as exchanged a letter or email. I find this to be very sad.
One wonders if any of this would be different had Gygax not died so early.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 16:04:33 GMT -6
As a sometime defender of Gygax, I completely agree with @theperilousdreamer about Gygax's obnoxious and egotistical side, especially those notorious Up On a Soapbox rants. It's always been unclear to me exactly what was going on there - probably a combination of things. Ken St. Andre is definitely a nice and gracious guy. I can also attest to that. But like many of us, especially those of us who are passionate and opinionated about gaming, he does have a few foibles and ticks about a few things and people - Gary Gygax being one of them. Whatever you think of the rights and wrongs of it, it's pretty easy to understand. In an interview, St. Andre said that he and Gygax had never once spoken. Indeed, they had never so much as exchanged a letter or email. I find this to be very sad. One wonders if any of this would be different had Gygax not died so early. And to be clear I am not anti-Gygax by any means, I just don't look at him or anyone else through rose-colored glasses. The Up On a Soapbox rants are notorious and documented many places, including IIRC on this forum to some extent. It is sad that all of the greats did not happily collaborate together. |
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Post by xerxez on Jun 10, 2017 4:45:45 GMT -6
Jeffro, thank you for the post. That was good to read, especially the discussion about pulp authors, many of whom I was either unaware of or did not know they had started by writing pulp. I knew little of Ken St. Andre or T&T. I'm not surprised he has opinions and feelings concerning his industry and its history. People being people, it's all good!
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 10, 2017 6:09:17 GMT -6
I think that the problem for TSR was that they had the only RPG ever (not even called an RPG yet) and felt very defensive when others like St.Andre took the idea and ran with it. You can compare the "do your own thing" philosophy in the LBB to the "follow the official rulings of TSR" philosophy in early Dragon magazine. And Ken doesn't help things when he says that he didn't like D&D as written but knew he could improve upon it. I think this established competitiveness instead of cooperativeness. Oil and water. Now for me I like both games, as shown by the fact that I created a message board for each years ago. They feel different, they play different, but they are both a lot of fun. I've corresponded with both gentlemen, Ken and Gary, and both were very polite and thoughtful about their own creations. I don't feel a need to "take sides" since both games have their own demographic and have been around for 40 years. Clearly, there is room for both games on the shelf of an old-school gamer!  |
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Post by derv on Jun 10, 2017 6:41:19 GMT -6
Not intending to side track this conversation, but I think the subject of T&T in relation to OD&D is an important one. The idea that Ken took the 3 LBB's and modified the content to suit his own predisposition (one not informed by miniature wargaming) dovetails nicely with Kuntz's recent book that suggests that that was the original design's intent. It's somewhat humorous that other's immediately took them up on the idea and TSR turned around and started reacting by issuing C&D's to stop this implied intention.
Ken and Rick Loomis were there during this time period. Ken mention's the shake up with Moorcock's IP in response to Jeffro's question. Even though I have never heard Ken say a blatantly negative thing about Gygax, I honestly wouldn't fault him if he did so in the most transparent of manners. He probably does have an opinion about the man and is constantly questioned in relation to Gygax and D&D. From a historical perspective on what was happening during this time period, I think Rick Loomis might be a better interview. Flying Buffalo was the object of TSR C&D's and had working relations with Arneson after the falling out with TSR.
BTW, part of the reason T&T is spoken well of by story gamers is because Ken embraced this element of the game from the start. T&T started from a different assumption than D&D. This figures since he was in grad school to be a Librarian.
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Post by ritt on Jul 4, 2017 17:21:41 GMT -6
Great interview. Thanks for sharing this.
I never knew anyone who owned or played T&T or (the really underrated) Mercenaries, Spies, & Privates Eyes back in the day (i.e Late 70's-1980's). I didn't get exposed to those games until I was a middle-aged adult. Mr. St. Andre and his whole family of (Very interesting) old school RPGS is relatively new to me.
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Post by MormonYoYoMan on Jul 4, 2017 18:18:26 GMT -6
Derv, I need to ask if he was in grad school to BE a librarian or to BEAT UP a librarian. I get those two confused.
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Post by derv on Jul 4, 2017 19:07:15 GMT -6
Derv, I need to ask if he was in grad school to BE a librarian or to BEAT UP a librarian. I get those two confused. I may have gotten my facts wrong or misheard him.... It might have been that he was a mad fool to eat that Ligurian cuisine.  |
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Post by scottenkainen on Jul 7, 2017 10:18:59 GMT -6
Librarians rock!
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Post by ritt on Jul 7, 2017 11:14:27 GMT -6
LOL Honestly after reading Tunnels & Trolls I would be kinda disappointed if the creator wasn't an eccentric, sorta grumpy guy.
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