Which one promotes the oldest style of play?

[catacomb]

Pardon me if my question is naive, but i am a neophyte-

As far as i understood, the most ancient "relics" of our hobby can be traced back and summarized in two games, namely "Dragons at Dawn" and "Champions of Zed".

They contain the oldest rules/style of play in existence.

If this analysis is correct, may i ask which of the two can be regarded as "the oldest"?

Thanks in advance.

[Deleted]

Well, Classic D&D (the three booklets) is available legally on PDF, and Arneson's "First Fantasy Campaign" is still drifting around out there in print, so if you REALLY want "the oldest," those would be the two to look at.

[waysoftheearth]

catacomb, you can ask aldarron for the precise answer, but my understanding is that Dragons at Dawn is a rendering of Arneson's game prior to any discussion with EGG. Champions of ZED is a rendering of the Arneson and Gygax collaboration on the game prior to publication of D&D. (FWIW, I would position DD5 next in the "clone chronology", as a rendering of the game material circa 1974).

Regarding the currently available OD&D PDFs, I'm pretty sure (please correct me if I'm wrong) that these are from the recent WotC re-release (8th print, circa 2014). They're very similar, but subtly different to, the originals e.g., see here.

[aldarron]

May 6, 2017 11:43:57 GMT -6 catacomb said:

Pardon me if my question is naive, but i am a neophyte-

As far as i understood, the most ancient "relics" of our hobby can be traced back and summarized in two games, namely "Dragons at Dawn" and "Champions of Zed".

They contain the oldest rules/style of play in existence.

If this analysis is correct, may i ask which of the two can be regarded as "the oldest"?

Thanks in advance.

Well, first see Wote's answer.

Dragons at Dawn is a tribute game (not a clone) I pulled for revsion after more and more information started becoming available. Certainly in terms of freeform style and character types D@D reflects as intended, original Blackmoor play, and some of the mechanics - like the morale stages or the magic failure rates are exact as played in early Blackmoor. At the same time D@D freely draws inspiration from later, post D&D Blackmoor play, original player comments and interviews, and even Adventures in Fantasy. Soooo. Some of the rules where available did indeed go back to pre '73. Others are "functuional equivalents" done to emulate the style of play.

OTOH, Champions of ZED also includes some pre'73 material (both Twin Cities and CHAINMAIL stuff) and lots of Dalluhn/Beyond This Point be Dragons material. But any such material are things used by Arneson or Gygax in the play of D&D. The rest of CoZ is either striaght 3lbb's or Arneson or Gygax D&D houserules ranging in age from supplement I in 1975 to internet posts in 2008. Coz isn't so much a time-framed document as it is an author framed document - meaning it is as true to the rules of Gygax and Arneson for OD&D as I could manage.

[smubee]

For further reading, check this out..

smolderingwizard.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/rythlondar.pdf

[Deleted]

I'm of the opinion that the only way to experience the early days is to throw all your game books in the trash, grab a couple dice and some friends and made stuff up.

[DungeonDevil]

May 10, 2017 10:30:11 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

I'm of the opinion that the only way to experience the early days is to throw all your game books in the trash give your game books to me!, grab a couple dice and some friends and made stuff up.

Slightly emended.

GETTING BACK TO THE PRIMORDIAL EPOCH OF ROLEPLAYING GAMES:

1) Develop a solid background in Ancient and Mediaeval (and, to a lesser extent, Renaissance) military history.

2) After having custom-built a large sandbox in the basement or garage, apply said knowledge in item 1) to historical miniatures wargaming mass combat (say, 1:20 or 1:30 scale). Read up on the wargaming books by Grant, Morschauser, Featherstone, Bath, et al. available to readers in the late-1950s through mid-1970s.

3) Read The Lord of the Rings (+ The Hobbit + The Silmarillion). Later throw in some of REH's Conan stories, Moorcock's Elric saga, and Leiber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser tales. Mix in some doses of various kinds of mythology from various parts of the world (e.g. Greco-Roman, Norse, Celtic, etc.) Remember, only the lit available in the aforementioned timeframe!

4) Integrate fantasy elements into your Ancient/Mediaeval wargaming campaign. E.g. monsters, magic and other things that make the stodgy Napoleonics grognards roll their eyes.

5) Contemplate how to add 1:1 scale design elements to your campaign that do not directly pertain to mass combat.

6) Have the epiphany that you're onto something good and rush your rules into print before the next guy beats you to it! It is important to have a cross-eyed kid with palsy do the artwork for your product.

7) Reap the rewards!

[waysoftheearth]

The process from which D&D emerged is a thing.

The game that happened to emerge out of that process back in 1973-74 is another thing.

Both interesting, but not one and the same thing IMHO.