catacomb
Level 2 Seer
mesmerizedbysirens.blogspot.com
Posts: 40
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Post by catacomb on May 3, 2017 3:41:37 GMT -6
Hello,
someone can explain to me what is the difference between "Sword & Wizardry" white box (the very first edition which came out in 2010 in a boxed set,published by Brave halfling with a cover where some characters were fighting against a dragon) and "Delving Deeper" boxed set? (It was also released as a boxed set in 2011 and now it's out of print).
Which is the most faithful to old OD&D? Which is the most minimalist game? (I mean, that which takes into account only the three original booklets).
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Post by foxroe on May 3, 2017 4:30:05 GMT -6
Whoa boy. Here goes.
S&W and Delving Deeper are pretty much the same with respect to the rules. S&W clings more to the rules as they evolved to something most people are used to, while DeDe (my own abbreviation) clings closer to a specific, solid interpretation of the original rules. They are both "clones" of the original rules and both excellent; just differing approaches.
There was a time when I would point someone to a particular clone of the original "rules" due to the unapproachability of obtaining the original rules , but that seems to be irrelevant now. The ORIGINAL rules are available now for a few dollars in PDF form, so that is where I will likely point most folks now.
Soooooo.... to answer your excellent question (it's honestly something that I think has been asked before, but never really answered well), the differences are negligible. Oh sure, someone will inevitably point out that rule A in this game states such and such, and it doesn't in the other... blah, blah, blah; but, in the end, the two games are so close enough to the original in spirit, that it really doesn't matter.
The point is the game, not the rules. Are your players having fun? Then the rules are good enough, regardless of where they came from.
<< unceremoniously falls off of the soap box; breaks a hip >>
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Post by magremore on May 3, 2017 4:55:13 GMT -6
Hello, someone can explain to me what is the difference between "Sword & Wizardry" white box (the very first edition which came out in 2010 in a boxed set,published by Brave halfling with a cover where some characters were fighting against a dragon) and "Delving Deeper" boxed set? (It was also released as a boxed set in 2011 and now it's out of print). Which is the most faithful to old OD&D? Which is the most minimalist game? (I mean, that which takes into account only the three original booklets). There have been some good discussions on this general topic here before. See odd74.proboards.com/thread/10162/compare-contrast-simulacra-retro-clones. |
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Post by Red Baron on May 3, 2017 7:01:38 GMT -6
S&W:white box is OD&D simplified for beginners. It is intended for people who came from later editions who wanted to experience od&d, but would have been mind-boggled by the 3lbbs. Its a combination of Moldvay organization and Holmes light-heartedness, but with a 3lbbs vibe.
Delving Deeper is the opposite. Its od&d for players who thought the 3lbbs weren't difficult and esoteric enough. WoTE has a head for number-crunching and picking through the rules for details. All of the complexity and esoteric-ism of the 3llbs, FCC, and chainmail has somehow been retained, yet its incredibly easy, quick, and intuitive to use.
DD is more faithful, SW:wb is more minimalist.
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 3, 2017 7:08:53 GMT -6
I also wrote this post in reply to this question back in 2013. There was a time when I would point someone to a particular clone of the original "rules" due to the unapproachability of obtaining the original rules , but that seems to be irrelevant now. The ORIGINAL rules are available now for a few dollars in PDF form, so that is where I will likely point most folks now. This is an interesting one. IMHO the clones can still serve a useful purpose. One of those purposes can be to present the original as a well-structured, well-indexed resource. Another can be to bring together the body of relevant material into one convenient place, rather than having it spread about. A third purpose can to refine the previous point by bringing contemporary material together. Despite the wealth of PDFs available today, it's still not so easy to pull together, say, all 1974 prints, or all 1975 prints of the original game. Another purpose can be meshing it all together into a more coherent whole, rather than a bunch of semi-disjointed stuff. If that's your thing. And yet another purpose can be to simply enjoy doing any of the above...  |
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catacomb
Level 2 Seer
mesmerizedbysirens.blogspot.com
Posts: 40
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Post by catacomb on May 3, 2017 10:04:12 GMT -6
Delving Deeper is the opposite. Its od&d for players who thought the 3lbbs weren't difficult and esoteric enough. WoTE has a head for number-crunching and picking through the rules for details. All of the complexity and esoteric-ism of the 3llbs, FCC, and chainmail has somehow been retained, yet its incredibly easy, quick, and intuitive to use. DD is more faithful, SW:wb is more minimalist. Thanks to all of you for your quick replies. Now i definitely got a clearer idea. But,pardon my ignorance on the matter, what does FCC stand for? |
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Post by Red Baron on May 3, 2017 11:16:06 GMT -6
typo first fantasy campaign.
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Post by kenmeister on May 3, 2017 12:10:02 GMT -6
S&W:white box is OD&D simplified for beginners. It is intended for people who came from later editions who wanted to experience od&d, but would have been mind-boggled by the 3lbbs. Its a combination of Moldvay organization and Holmes light-heartedness, but with a 3lbbs vibe. Delving Deeper is the opposite. Its od&d for players who thought the 3lbbs weren't difficult and esoteric enough. WoTE has a head for number-crunching and picking through the rules for details. All of the complexity and esoteric-ism of the 3llbs, FCC, and chainmail has somehow been retained, yet its incredibly easy, quick, and intuitive to use. DD is more faithful, SW:wb is more minimalist. I've been running S&W WB over in my Palace of the Vampire Queen forum and I have to say in general it's great but sometimes it's too minimalist, and I find myself reaching for S&W Core or the OD&D booklets for rules consultations. For instance, flaming oil damage I needed to look up in S&W Core. Wandering monster charts I'm using the ones from the original rules. Also, my understanding is Delving Deeper comes with a thief class whereas S&W WB does not. |
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Post by MormonYoYoMan on May 3, 2017 13:03:05 GMT -6
Delving Deeper is the opposite. Its od&d for players who thought the 3lbbs weren't difficult and esoteric enough. WoTE has a head for number-crunching and picking through the rules for details. All of the complexity and esoteric-ism of the 3llbs, FCC, and chainmail has somehow been retained, yet its incredibly easy, quick, and intuitive to use. DD is more faithful, SW:wb is more minimalist. Thanks to all of you for your quick replies. Now i definitely got a clearer idea. But,pardon my ignorance on the matter, what does FCC stand for? A federal agency which fears its power is slipping away. |
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Post by foxroe on May 3, 2017 18:27:23 GMT -6
I also wrote this post in reply to this question back in 2013. There was a time when I would point someone to a particular clone of the original "rules" due to the unapproachability of obtaining the original rules , but that seems to be irrelevant now. The ORIGINAL rules are available now for a few dollars in PDF form, so that is where I will likely point most folks now. This is an interesting one. IMHO the clones can still serve a useful purpose. One of those purposes can be to present the original as a well-structured, well-indexed resource. Another can be to bring together the body of relevant material into one convenient place, rather than having it spread about. A third purpose can to refine the previous point by bringing contemporary material together. Despite the wealth of PDFs available today, it's still not so easy to pull together, say, all 1974 prints, or all 1975 prints of the original game. Another purpose can be meshing it all together into a more coherent whole, rather than a bunch of semi-disjointed stuff. If that's your thing. And yet another purpose can be to simply enjoy doing any of the above... Excellent points. There are those that seem to be put off by the organization of the original rules (though it never bothered me), so S&W/DD would be the way to go in such cases. |
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Post by The Wanderer on May 3, 2017 19:13:09 GMT -6
The ORIGINAL rules are available now for a few dollars in PDF form, so that is where I will likely point most folks now But they are only available in PDF. So until they finally are (if ever) available as print on demand, then clones are also still very good alternatives for people who don't like PDFs. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 4, 2017 5:21:57 GMT -6
Also, my understanding is Delving Deeper comes with a thief class This is true. In DD V4 (the current stable version) the thief appears as an optional class. In DD V5 (forthcoming) the thief has been moved to an appendix, and is accompanied by a brief history of the class. |
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Post by Starbeard on May 4, 2017 13:40:09 GMT -6
I'll start the inevitable descent into 'which one has rules X and Y?'
My impression is that DD also brings over a complete set of rules and guidelines for wilderness and water travel from OD&D, sprinkled with Outdoor Survivalisms, whereas S&WWB largely sticks to the basics of listing travel rates and encounter tables. Is this accurate?
I ask not because one is a better approach than the other, but only because hexcrawling is more important to me personally than it really should be, frankly.
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Post by ffilz on May 19, 2017 8:41:49 GMT -6
The discussion about what clone does this or that is always of interest to me. Unfortunately, I have yet to see something that actually organizes all the differences, and unfortunately, probably even if someone started such a thing, it wouldn't cover subtle differences.
My work on the comparison of the 4 editions of Classic Traveller shows me how easy it is to miss subtle rules differences as people keep pointing out some new difference.
In the end the thing I would like out of the clones is an MS Word compatible document with all the rules text for a clone that comes as close to the rules in OD&D as possible (and is careful to document where and why there are differences - with that if I didn't accept a difference, at least I could edit the original back in). This would allow me to tweak the rules to my taste.
At this point in my life, I'm no longer interested in playing the RPG of the week, and if your favorite rules set has some cool rule that wasn't in the original game, all I need is a good description of the rule, and I can either put it in my house rules document.
Of course in some ways, I'm probably a horrible example of an OSR customer...
Frank
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2017 10:48:56 GMT -6
The discussion about what clone does this or that is always of interest to me. Unfortunately, I have yet to see something that actually organizes all the differences, and unfortunately, probably even if someone started such a thing, it wouldn't cover subtle differences. My work on the comparison of the 4 editions of Classic Traveller shows me how easy it is to miss subtle rules differences as people keep pointing out some new difference. In the end the thing I would like out of the clones is an MS Word compatible document with all the rules text for a clone that comes as close to the rules in OD&D as possible (and is careful to document where and why there are differences - with that if I didn't accept a difference, at least I could edit the original back in). This would allow me to tweak the rules to my taste. At this point in my life, I'm no longer interested in playing the RPG of the week, and if your favorite rules set has some cool rule that wasn't in the original game, all I need is a good description of the rule, and I can either put it in my house rules document. Of course in some ways, I'm probably a horrible example of an OSR customer... Frank Since the pdf's of the 3LBBs are now available and they allow you to copy paste the text to a word processor, anyone who has the time and patience can customize to suit their own taste for their own table. Now if you want to publish you will want to use a clone and benefit from the protection of the OGL or go totally original and create something completely new. One glaring (IMO) difference is that with S&W if you want to claim compatibility with S&W you must include both descending and ascending AC. If you don't want the 3E reference in your product, then you cannot claim compatibility with S&W. Along with the excellent Delving Deeper, Iron Falcon which includes the Greyhawk Supplement is also excellent and the Holmes D&D Basic/BLUEHOLME™ Prentice Rules /BLUEHOLME™ Journeymanne Rules the last of which expands it to level 20 are also excellent. |
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