KrinnPhindalin
Level 3 Conjurer
Player in Lord Gronan's Games at GaryCon VII, VIII, IX, and X
Posts: 65
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Post by KrinnPhindalin on Apr 6, 2017 22:42:37 GMT -6
Hello everyone- I am a new to DMing and OD&D, and I am starting a campaign on April 29. I have a large group of friends who I have met through school and D&D games, and there is the opportunity to DM a campaign for 12 players. How do I make it so everyone shares the spotlight while keeping to the old-school deadly style? I want to make a fun game -and I have made the world, but I may have a propel with the sheer number of players. Do any of you have any tips for DMing or DMing a group of this size? I have also stepped in as a co-DM for my local game store's Adventurer's League games, and I would like tips for that as well. For the AL game, I am running Tales from the Yawning Portal, and I want to give it the old-school vibe that it should have. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your help, and I look forward to running my games!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2017 22:58:21 GMT -6
Wipe them out.
All of them.
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KrinnPhindalin
Level 3 Conjurer
Player in Lord Gronan's Games at GaryCon VII, VIII, IX, and X
Posts: 65
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Post by KrinnPhindalin on Apr 6, 2017 23:02:21 GMT -6
Wipe them out. All of them. I will happily do so! I will definitely put in at least 6 more Kobalds into your Kobald Mine adventure, and I will make random monster checks in the dungeons every 10 minutes. I will do it every hour in the overworld. I killed 2 party members in the 5e organized play game that I ran last night, and they were in the upper levels. I'm taking after you with your ruthless efficiency in killing players!
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KrinnPhindalin
Level 3 Conjurer
Player in Lord Gronan's Games at GaryCon VII, VIII, IX, and X
Posts: 65
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Post by KrinnPhindalin on Apr 6, 2017 23:07:08 GMT -6
Wipe them out. All of them. Also, is this what you are planning for GaryCon next year? I actually want to make a new character. I want to make my Frog-Man cleric who does dumb things like touching monsters with his tongue while riding on his Giant Toad mount. I have an addiction with frogs.
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Post by talysman on Apr 7, 2017 0:07:01 GMT -6
There's another thread discussing the way callers work. A caller would probably be absolutely necessary to keep some form of order in a group of twelve. And if they don't, you should use the rules suggested in that thread: - Anything the players say to each other is what the characters are saying to each other, and the characters are making exactly the same amount of noise as the players.
- The longer the players take to decide what to do, the longer it takes for the characters to take action.
- And the longer it takes for the characters to take action, the more likely it is that wandering monsters will come to check out all that noise.
That will help you carry out Gronan's commandment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 7:45:14 GMT -6
Hello everyone- I am a new to DMing and OD&D, and I am starting a campaign on April 29. I have a large group of friends who I have met through school and D&D games, and there is the opportunity to DM a campaign for 12 players. How do I make it so everyone shares the spotlight while keeping to the old-school deadly style? I want to make a fun game -and I have made the world, but I may have a propel with the sheer number of players. Do any of you have any tips for DMing or DMing a group of this size? I have also stepped in as a co-DM for my local game store's Adventurer's League games, and I would like tips for that as well. For the AL game, I am running Tales from the Yawning Portal, and I want to give it the old-school vibe that it should have. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your help, and I look forward to running my games! Asking advice is a very good first step and while I have never shied away from a TPK and at least IMC have never found it to be a negative thing, it is not your job as the Ref (DM) to kill the characters. Your job is to provide them endless opportunities to make both good and bad decisions. Bad decisions often lead to death. Definitely use a caller and follow the link that was provided by talysman to the other thread. I also started with 12 players right out of the gate, after I had been playing a little over a month or so. I had the advantage of us all being college kids and all about the same age. I have played with up to 30 players, but usually no more than 18-20. I am not as quick thinking as I was 42 years ago and I had one game in the past few years where ages ranged from 10 to mid 50's and had 15 players and that really stretched me and was nothing like my college experience with all like-minded people. Most campaigns I have heard of usually run 3-6 players at a time and some people consider 6 players too many to handle. Please don't let that deter you from running a larger group. Using the caller as described in the other thread primarily as the one who directs traffic with making and helping the party move as quietly as possible and to help to keep from drawing the attention of multiple wandering monsters. It also helps to keep the game moving at a good speed and that helps to prevent anyone from getting bored. Be descriptive of the environment they are walking through, it helps set the atmosphere and gives the players more to focus on. For combat I always just went around the table. Bitd we did not have a wargame background and OD&D doesn't have much about initiative, so we ran all combat as simultaneous. That is advantageous with a large group, especially for a beginner. With smaller groups and/or more experience you can add it in. I believe there are a several threads on here about initiative. I currently use initiative and with 4-6 players it doesn't really slow things down.
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Post by tetramorph on Apr 7, 2017 8:07:12 GMT -6
Here are some thoughts off the top of my head:
Listen. Let them give you ideas. On the spot. "I try to move the sconce, does anything happen?" You have planned nothing. But, of course, it could open that secret door if you had thought of it. So now it does, because the player was thinking and playing well and you want to reward that. Just remember to mark it on your map/key! You prep well, for sure. But the world is created together.
Slow down. It is not a race to the finish. Take the time to figure out what is going on, what your players are really trying to do, all the stuff that is really on your map. They will understand that you are giving a pretty big gift to them and they will honor the time you take to do a good job of it. You will get better over time and take less and less time to do things on the fly. But for now. Slow down. Take it easy. Think.
Give them things they have to figure out, not just kill. Make sure there are clues. Don't resolve everything with game mechanics. "The trap springs, you take 6 damage." Damage is important but boring. How about "The trap springs and now the path behind you is shut and the way in front of you is on fire." "Is the pit still open?" "Yes." "What do we see down there." "A tunnel going two different ways." Make them have to take a new course of action. Make them have to figure stuff out. Force opportunities for role play. Give in-game character actions in-game role-play consequences. I've had the crazy traps that gave NO damage -- just a heck of a lot of trouble.
I say all this because, right now, these three pieces of advice would have helped me the most when I first started refereeing.
Fight on!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 9:58:05 GMT -6
Here are some thoughts off the top of my head: Listen. Let them give you ideas. On the spot. "I try to move the sconce, does anything happen?" You have planned nothing. But, of course, it could open that secret door if you had thought of it. So now it does, because the player was thinking and playing well and you want to reward that. Just remember to mark it on your map/key! You prep well, for sure. But the world is created together. Sorry, man, I must disagree in the STRONGEST terms possible. Never, ever, EVER change things on the fly like that! It is the ONLY way that the referee can "cheat". Once the reality of the game world becomes mutable, the notion of cause and effect flies out the window. Never, never, never, never, never, NEVER CHANGE THINGS ON THE FLY!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 9:59:50 GMT -6
Also, is this what you are planning for GaryCon next year? I actually want to make a new character. I want to make my Frog-Man cleric who does dumb things like touching monsters with his tongue while riding on his Giant Toad mount. I have an addiction with frogs. Careful; though my characterization is tongue in cheek, my combat is serous. "Dumb" characters will not last long, and are rude to the other players because it endangers their characters as well. Remember "Turd Bucket" in this year's game.
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DM Tips
Apr 7, 2017 10:12:51 GMT -6
Post by tetramorph on Apr 7, 2017 10:12:51 GMT -6
Sorry, man, I must disagree in the STRONGEST terms possible. Never, ever, EVER change things on the fly like that! It is the ONLY way that the referee can "cheat". Once the reality of the game world becomes mutable, the notion of cause and effect flies out the window. Never, never, never, never, never, NEVER CHANGE THINGS ON THE FLY! I read you and I respect you. Let's say you're playing and the players come up with something better than you have thought of yourself because you have only one mind and they have several, because you are planning it but they are playing it. Let's say you jot a note to yourself so that you will remember to use it next time. Between sessions you add the cool idea to another spot or level. That would be okay, right? All I do is sometimes (not often, certainly not usually) short cut that process by deciding that that was the case all along, because it was cooler than my original idea. I NEVER DO THIS IF: a. it is obvious to the players or b. it would in anyway skew the rest of the planned world. I just don't plan everything in advance. I cannot, because I am finite. The game world is inherently mutable, because it is imaginary. Cause and effect are still in place within the game world. The players helped my mind discover something about that world I had not discovered, yet, on my own. I am still old school. I still play it wargame, with mapping, with caller, with predetermined rooms with M & T and tricks and traps, etc. All I am talking about is a certain level of detail that I cannot and do not expect myself always to have prepared. If a good idea comes from my own brain at table, I will add it on the fly. Sometimes (under the above conditions) if it comes from players, I will add it to. By saying that we create the world together, I am in no way supporting a "narrativist" approach. It's just about my finitude and openness to inspiration. That's all.
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Post by smubee on Apr 7, 2017 10:49:02 GMT -6
Wipe them out. All of them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 10:56:02 GMT -6
Prep is good if you have time to do it and it works for you. Creating it on the fly is also good if you have limited time and it works for you. When I started playing I had a heavy course load and so I had no or very little prep time nor did I have anyone to suggest it or mentor me in it. Planning things out in advance is something I did not do on paper and only to some extent in my mind. Now I design my world in the large scale top down and then to flesh it out move to bottom up design.
In game I create 99%+ on the fly and when I mention an item I have already determined in my mind what things are possible with that item or feature. If I decided that anything they attempt results in nothing happening I stick with that. Any ideas that are generated during there attempts are filed away to be used later. If they find a treasure chest, I have already made the decision of what will be required to gain access, and what is inside. I decide what I want to do and then that is what I do.
I rarely refer to anything written other than a few tables and I have run games without using the tables. Without using an attack matrix, they roll and I tell them if they hit or not. They have hits and misses. I must be fair, because they have never objected or even looked unhappy and they keep coming back. When I run it like that combat really moves fast. That of course requires a high degree of trust from your players and a lot of experience on the part of the ref.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 12:11:57 GMT -6
Hello everyone- I am a new to DMing and OD&D, and I am starting a campaign on April 29. I have a large group of friends who I have met through school and D&D games, and there is the opportunity to DM a campaign for 12 players. How do I make it so everyone shares the spotlight while keeping to the old-school deadly style? I want to make a fun game -and I have made the world, but I may have a propel with the sheer number of players. Do any of you have any tips for DMing or DMing a group of this size? I have also stepped in as a co-DM for my local game store's Adventurer's League games, and I would like tips for that as well. For the AL game, I am running Tales from the Yawning Portal, and I want to give it the old-school vibe that it should have. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your help, and I look forward to running my games! For context: Are you the little one on the picture, or are you the older one?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 13:18:26 GMT -6
Compare the first picture to the one below it.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Apr 7, 2017 13:20:22 GMT -6
Hi Toadrin, I don't know if you are the kid in your profile pic or not, but any new DM shouldn't start with 12 players. You could run two games, I mean 2 individual campaigns, but that would be very time consuming. IME, What happens in most early D&D games of large player size is someone's small group game becomes popular. So the DM adds players slowly until they are at the most he or she is comfortable running. That can certainly be 12, but it's asking a lot if you are new. How do I make it so everyone shares the spotlight while keeping to the old-school deadly style? Spotlight time games versus strategy games are two different things. A lot of people treat gaming and sports today as improvised group storytelling rather than a game. And that's okay. To be fairer to all storytellers rules are made about how much time each gets in the limelight. In early D&D games however we are playing strategy games. Think of it like your favorite videogame or a cooperative boardgame where the players strive to better work together to beat the game or at least get as far as they can. You can find many of the principles of the game in Dave Megarry's "Dungeon!" boardgame, though that is competitive. In these games players may take turns, but it's really about achieving objectives, some of which score points, and going up in level. That's old school; more like a game where you could fail and need to start over - not the story stuff. I have also stepped in as a co-DM for my local game store's Adventurer's League games, and I would like tips for that as well. For the AL game, I am running Tales from the Yawning Portal, and I want to give it the old-school vibe that it should have. Try using early monsters and game locations from early D&D to give it some authentic feel. Each of the adventures in that book are from different edition eras. You could pull content from each one to fit.
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flightcommander
Level 6 Magician
"I become drunk as circumstances dictate."
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Post by flightcommander on Apr 7, 2017 13:33:12 GMT -6
It's the same shirt!
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KrinnPhindalin
Level 3 Conjurer
Player in Lord Gronan's Games at GaryCon VII, VIII, IX, and X
Posts: 65
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DM Tips
Apr 7, 2017 13:43:27 GMT -6
Post by KrinnPhindalin on Apr 7, 2017 13:43:27 GMT -6
Also, is this what you are planning for GaryCon next year? I actually want to make a new character. I want to make my Frog-Man cleric who does dumb things like touching monsters with his tongue while riding on his Giant Toad mount. I have an addiction with frogs. Careful; though my characterization is tongue in cheek, my combat is serous. "Dumb" characters will not last long, and are rude to the other players because it endangers their characters as well. Remember "Turd Bucket" in this year's game. I know combat is serious- I was going for the whole use touch spells from range with your tongue gimmick associated with frog-men. I would normally use a quarter staff, but I like being able to heal from range. I am not making a dumb character per say as I am making a frog-man. I will see how it works out, as I am introducing the race into my home game as NPCs. I also have a serious character if it works out poorly.
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KrinnPhindalin
Level 3 Conjurer
Player in Lord Gronan's Games at GaryCon VII, VIII, IX, and X
Posts: 65
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Post by KrinnPhindalin on Apr 7, 2017 13:50:54 GMT -6
Hello everyone- I am a new to DMing and OD&D, and I am starting a campaign on April 29. I have a large group of friends who I have met through school and D&D games, and there is the opportunity to DM a campaign for 12 players. How do I make it so everyone shares the spotlight while keeping to the old-school deadly style? I want to make a fun game -and I have made the world, but I may have a propel with the sheer number of players. Do any of you have any tips for DMing or DMing a group of this size? I have also stepped in as a co-DM for my local game store's Adventurer's League games, and I would like tips for that as well. For the AL game, I am running Tales from the Yawning Portal, and I want to give it the old-school vibe that it should have. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your help, and I look forward to running my games! For context: Are you the little one on the picture, or are you the older one? That is a picture of me (in the green) from 3 years ago. I am with Michael Mornard after dying in his game from Troglodytes at 1st level and being resurrected.
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Post by ritt on Apr 7, 2017 14:41:50 GMT -6
Think like a thirteen year-old. Embrace your inner kid.
The more you prepare, the more you can improvise.
Long-term campaigns and non-campaign one-offs or con games have totally different dynamics and require very different approaches.
Keep things moving.
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DM Tips
Apr 7, 2017 15:37:18 GMT -6
Post by tetramorph on Apr 7, 2017 15:37:18 GMT -6
Long-term campaigns and non-campaign one-offs or con games have totally different dynamics and require very different approaches. I know this is true. But could you talk a bit more about it? The campaign I reentered into play as an adult is more a string of tournament modules that happen to be in the same world. How do I switch from that formation to something more like a consistent campaign? Fight on!
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Post by ritt on Apr 7, 2017 15:57:02 GMT -6
Long-term campaigns and non-campaign one-offs or con games have totally different dynamics and require very different approaches. I know this is true. But could you talk a bit more about it? The campaign I reentered into play as an adult is more a string of tournament modules that happen to be in the same world. How do I switch from that formation to something more like a consistent campaign? Fight on! Off the top of my head, IMHO the "Let the players give you ideas" improvisational approach debated above is totally acceptable for a one-off game. In a long campaign, your dungeon is basically a dangerous puzzle that may take many, many sessions to crack (Thus, you want to be consistent and not "Cheat"). Whereas in a one-shot nobody is coming back to the location again and the unwritten rules are a little different -like the difference between a multi-season TV drama and a ninety-minute blockbuster movie. Likewise, resource tracking is _crucial_ for a long campaign (You slowly see things like picking up rations and torches get more and more important as the party's ranks swell with hirelings and animals and the dungeons get farther from civilization, and the planning stage becomes an even more integral part of the adventure), but it just kills precious time in a con game.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 16:21:08 GMT -6
For context: Are you the little one on the picture, or are you the older one? That is a picture of me (in the green) from 3 years ago. I am with Michael Mornard after dying in his game from Troglodytes at 1st level and being resurrected. Thank you for clarifying. That means that you're in your teens, then, right? That's important to know for the kind of advice that one might want to give you. Also, with Mr Mornard, you surely already saw first-hand how good RPG-ing is done. What I would maybe add, as general advice to younger DMs, is this: 1. Read as much as you can. RPGs are, in the end, games of language. The more you know, and the better your vocabulary and stylistic repertoire, the better you can present your game. - And that doesn't limit itself to the genre of your choice, of course. Poetry might be worth a look - because that's where the best language can be found, usually. 2. Read the players. Like in poker, you play the game, but you also play the people on the table. RPGs are storytelling games, and, in time, you learn how to keep people more, or less, engaged. 3. Dream big, and experiment. Don't think so much about whether your games are "good", or "bad", or conformist with any random label. Pick scenarios that you consider interesting, and see what happens if you try. Regardless of whether you do a good, or not-such-a-good job, this is how you'll find your own style of running games. And as to running a big (10+ people) group, I've done this a couple of times. Here is what I learned: 1. This is going to be a very loud, very unfocused table, NO MATTER what you do. So, keep the intervals short in which you change from player to player. Also, keep in mind that you got to run this table, for a very long time. So, organize your stuff in advance, and do it really, really well, so you have everything handy when you need it, so your interruptions on the table are minimal. Because once you have to pause, and you are in exponentially more danger to lose people's attention, and, once lost, that's something very difficult to reestablish. 2. Give them something to do, and keep them busy. "Player empowerment" is the key, here, and games like "Beyond the Wall" may serve as an example. Talk as little as possible, and make sure that you have each of your addresses to the group followed by a longer response by them. It's a bit clumsy in the beginning, but you'll get the gist soon. 3. Run scenarios that emphasize player-to-player interaction. For example, a tavern brawl, or two or three teams working against each other, or them working on different tasks of the same mission. Personally, I'd perhaps choose a "defend the castle"-style scenario, where one group is defending from the walls, and another at the gate. Helm's Deep, as per the movie, if you like. That way, all members in the group would always have something to do, and the different groups could collaborate as well, like, when one group, whatever, sends a messenger up, and vice versa. - My two cents, on this late Friday night over here.
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Apr 7, 2017 18:02:26 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 18:02:26 GMT -6
I know combat is serious- I was going for the whole use touch spells from range with your tongue gimmick associated with frog-men. I would normally use a quarter staff, but I like being able to heal from range. I am not making a dumb character per say as I am making a frog-man. I will see how it works out, as I am introducing the race into my home game as NPCs. I also have a serious character if it works out poorly. Every advantage must have a corresponding penalty. Dwarfs can see in the dark, sense sloping passages, and judge stonework. They also cannot advance past 6th level. So if your frogman can cast touch spells at a 10 foot range, what are the disadvantages that the frogman has?
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KrinnPhindalin
Level 3 Conjurer
Player in Lord Gronan's Games at GaryCon VII, VIII, IX, and X
Posts: 65
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DM Tips
Apr 7, 2017 18:19:17 GMT -6
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Post by KrinnPhindalin on Apr 7, 2017 18:19:17 GMT -6
I know combat is serious- I was going for the whole use touch spells from range with your tongue gimmick associated with frog-men. I would normally use a quarter staff, but I like being able to heal from range. I am not making a dumb character per say as I am making a frog-man. I will see how it works out, as I am introducing the race into my home game as NPCs. I also have a serious character if it works out poorly. Every advantage must have a corresponding penalty. Dwarfs can see in the dark, sense sloping passages, and judge stonework. They also cannot advance past 6th level. So if your frogman can cast touch spells at a 10 foot range, what are the disadvantages that the frogman has? I think the disadvantage would be that he can't be a Magic-user or thief, and on a roll of a 1-2 when it is casting a spell with its tongue, the monster gets an attack of opportunity against it.
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KrinnPhindalin
Level 3 Conjurer
Player in Lord Gronan's Games at GaryCon VII, VIII, IX, and X
Posts: 65
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Post by KrinnPhindalin on Apr 7, 2017 18:28:37 GMT -6
Here is the semi-final draft of the Frog-Folk race:
See in the dark 30' Prehensile Tongue range 10' Can't be magic-user Can't be over 7th level Oppo attacks against on 1-2 when casting ranged tongue spells
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Post by smubee on Apr 7, 2017 20:37:53 GMT -6
I am not making a dumb character. I am making a frog-man. This is the funniest thing I've read all day, and I'm not being mean.. This is a hilarious sentence!!
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Post by howandwhy99 on Apr 7, 2017 20:49:38 GMT -6
Long-term campaigns and non-campaign one-offs or con games have totally different dynamics and require very different approaches. I know this is true. But could you talk a bit more about it? The campaign I reentered into play as an adult is more a string of tournament modules that happen to be in the same world. How do I switch from that formation to something more like a consistent campaign? Fight on! I was talking about this at Garycon. Sort of bemoaning the fact of one-off games conventions are limited to and trying to think past that. Here's my thoughts on the differences between the two: At root D&D is a cooperative game built as an addendum to a wargame, meaning it is 100% strategic in its design, but not for PvP competition. Instead players game a hidden design by imagining the portion the referee relates as vividly as possible and then make attempts to do things in the game. Good observation and memory (and/or note taking) enable successful play, but so do forethought and planning - just like in any strategy game. For me, the campaign game is the actual game. A single instance of play just like any other system played to accomplish goals within to a definitive end. It takes 100s of hours to complete, so it's played in sessions. The referee must decide on the rules he or she is going to use before play can begin. (I call this the code because it is never told to the players under any circumstances, but it's what they are mastering during play). Referees must also produce the initial design of the "world" or hidden map board ensuring it is balanced according to the different game difficulties and opposing alignment forces. This would be called the campaign setting, but a campaign starting module, like B2, is really what is needed to kick things off. Then players game the system and generated design choosing to face off against opponents and challenges they believe they can capably succeed at as they explore the board. It's sort of like Dungeon! the boardgame, but the PCs are only balanced to the game parts which correspond to their class level and then only if they work cooperatively. Classes are the role playing aspect of the game (exhibiting a fictional personality is the wrong definition and not supported, but you can be "immersed" in the imagined game). Each class has a subsystem in the game for the players to master - aka system mastery as the means for role mastery - and they are given separate class scores for their progress. However the Thief "skills" aren't really a game system and need to be made into one, if you plan on using it. Subclasses are really specializations of the core classes; each are under the subsystem which is their main focus. For races human is the default (for tons of stuff actually), but demi-humans (playing pieces which can be made near human enough) are included for variety. Convention games on the other hand are at best middle games made out of the main one. Think of them like middle game Chess scenarios where the pieces are pre-set in a particular configuration for an interesting and hopefully enjoyable strategic challenge. Only they are designed more in line with wargames, so think ASL modules but as a cooperative design. One-off and convention scenarios should be set up with an understanding to the time limits involved, but like most games there is no telling exactly when one will end. The basics of why the game is played though are still presumed: master your role by accomplishing difficult objectives which may or may not correspond to your class (aka score points to go up in level). In other words, try to win
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 21:23:54 GMT -6
There is no such thing as an attack of opportunity in OD&D.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Apr 8, 2017 9:39:55 GMT -6
There is no such thing as an attack of opportunity in OD&D. Of the many things I disliked about the WoTC house rule versions of D&D this is the one I hated the most. And people still cling to it! like it's great and innovative.
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Apr 8, 2017 10:29:32 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 10:29:32 GMT -6
Oh, the CONCEPT is good, it's just that the implementation stinks worse than three feet up Jabba the Hutt's butt. (Many Bothans died to bring us this information.)
Most wargames have some type of "Zone of Control" rule so you can't just waltz past enemy troops in your movement phase. Typically they take a paragraph, maybe two.
The Attack of Opportunity rules for Star Wars d20 are two and a half pages, and still don't make sense.
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