Does it matter to you? (popularity of zee game)

[scalydemon]

It seems like in general the popularity of Od&d has increased in the past few years. Some may be due to the WOTC reprint or increased social media activity.

My question is - do you care if OD&D becomes popular? Does it matter to you if more and more people get involved with playing this version or similar?

Just wanted to hear some opinions/thoughts thanks

[geoffrey]

It is indeed important to me for more people to play Gygaxian D&D: OD&D and AD&D.

I find that Gygaxian D&D is "the real thing", and as such I think many people can find playing the games deeply rewarding and even edifying. I feel sorry for the young ones staring at their little glowing rectangles, and (to a less extent) I feel bad for them reading the dry-as-dust rulebooks of later editions. Gygaxian D&D is where they can dive deep into the imagination and best find the good stuff.

[mrmanowar]

In my case, I started playing D&D (AD&D) in 1988. I wasn't even aware of what is now colloquially called OD&D until sometime in the 2000's. To me there was "Dungeons & Dragons" and "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons". When I found out about woodgrain/brown box and white box a curiosity formed to get these (along with Chainmail) to learn the history and how the game started. Since those days I have been able to get all titles involved and after playing them at cons and such discovered how much fun they truly were. I agree about reading the Gygax stuff. Great way for me to expand my vocabulary and make me want to find out what stuff meant, but also how to be creative verbally and visually. When I started my daughters off playing (single digit ages) I did a hybrid of OD&D and AD&D the same way I started way back in the day. They loved it. Only thing they have that I didn't have was Dad (me) making Dwarven Forge dungeons for them. Now they are always asking when they can play D&D or Dungeon (board game) and I am always happy to comply. I am thankful for this forum and its contributors to read all the awesome advice and comments about a game that has been around longer than I have been alive!

Edit: I did buy the OD&D reprints so I could keep my originals protected from harm and food stained fingers of kids, hahaha....

[foxroe]

Great question!

I agree with Geoffrey. When I was a wee lad first introduced to D&D (Holmes + AD&D), video arcades and Atari/Intellivision were all the rage. My friends and I thought they were cool and all, but we were completely hooked on D&D. How powerful and influential that simple set of rules was!

So, yes, I care. I think that everyone who decides to give D&D a try should experience OD&D/AD&D at least once, even if it is to only appreciate the roots of the hobby and form an opinion of the Olde Wayes. The more "popular" (or at least "present" and available) the original game is, then the more likely that this will come to pass.

When the pasty Adepts of XstationOne become disillusioned with their gilded Temples of Rules, the OSR should always be there to save their souls.

<< sorry, couldn't help myself... very tired  >>

[idrahil]

Like Manowar, I never even knew it was a thing until maybe 6 or 7 years ago. I enjoy it because it give the most freedom for tinkering around with stuff. In that regard, I hope it remains known and played.

It will probably remain a small, niche thing though...

[Deleted]

I agree with Idrahil about OD&D remaining niche, although I am by no mean a connoisseur about the field of contemporary gamers.

Really the popularity of a thing should not determine it's worth for me. (although I find it important to check out things that are popular because popular things usually have something going for them)
OD&D has proved itself extremely popular in that it spawned a whole world of gaming-- it is no surprise to me that it continues to have ups and downs. (although I insist that I became interested in OD&D before the release of the reprints)

It very much seems like the sort of thing that will continue to vary in terms of usual interest; sometimes it will be in vogue, other times it won't be. I imagine that a small contingent will always remain loyal. The main thing to remember is that, since OD&D is something out of original print, it remains a peculiarity. It is not (nor does it claim to be) on the cutting edge of roleplaying. People will like that more and less according to themselves and to the times.

[Finarvyn]

I'm of mixed minds. I started this place around a decade ago because OD&D was my first and favorite edition and there weren't any other places to talk about it, so clearly part of me wants there to be more popularity. However, I've heard many folks complain about its organization and have confusion about its rules and from that perspective perhaps it's better that folks find other old school editions (Holmes Basic, AD&D 1E, Moldvay B/E) that are written and organized better than the original. In that sense, popularizing OD&D, which is an edition that many folks seem not to like as well as others, may be a bad thing in that they may try it and not enjoy the rules and then scurry back to something more modern without giving the other old school stuff a try.

OD&D is #1 in my heart, but much of that is probably nostalgia more than reality. The reality is that I use the core of OD&D and "wing it" as needed, so my style of play is probably not a good one for a novice to the old school philosophy. The reality is that I chose OD&D because it was the only thing of its kind, and had I been able to choose between that and Holmes or AD&D or Moldvay I'm not certain that I would have picked OD&D.

[scottenkainen]

I would like older editions of D&D -- 1974 to 1995 -- to be twice as popular as they are, but if D&D ever became the most popular game around, I would probably abandon it for something more niche-y.

[coffee]

Mar 3, 2017 5:43:50 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

The reality is that I use the core of OD&D and "wing it" as needed, so my style of play is probably not a good one for a novice to the old school philosophy.

Or maybe it would be the "light dawning" moment for them, and they would finally get it. There is more to life than the rules, and the play is indeed the thing.

[Deleted]

I'd rather that OD&D remain obscure. Not because it's bad but because there are so many assumptions OD&D has that are different from modern RPGs and that the actual text of OD&D doesn't explain. So a modern gamer will read it, not understand it, and then dismiss it as obsolete or some sort of proto-RPG. Or, worse, try to run it as if it were a modern game and decide that it sucks.

I would much rather have a modern game that uses OD&D play style but explains the "why" of how it's actually works in practice. Retro clones, at least all those that I have seen, are written in a style which describes the rules in a minimalist fashion. Missing the vast majority of those unwritten old school assumptions.

[geoffrey]

Mar 3, 2017 5:43:50 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I'm of mixed minds. I started this place around a decade ago because OD&D was my first and favorite edition and there weren't any other places to talk about it, so clearly part of me wants there to be more popularity. However, I've heard many folks complain about its organization and have confusion about its rules and from that perspective perhaps it's better that folks find other old school editions (Holmes Basic, AD&D 1E, Moldvay B/E) that are written and organized better than the original. In that sense, popularizing OD&D, which is an edition that many folks seem not to like as well as others, may be a bad thing in that they may try it and not enjoy the rules and then scurry back to something more modern without giving the other old school stuff a try.

OD&D is #1 in my heart, but much of that is probably nostalgia more than reality. The reality is that I use the core of OD&D and "wing it" as needed, so my style of play is probably not a good one for a novice to the old school philosophy. The reality is that I chose OD&D because it was the only thing of its kind, and had I been able to choose between that and Holmes or AD&D or Moldvay I'm not certain that I would have picked OD&D.

Holmes is the ideal introduction to OD&D + GREYHAWK.

[strangebrew]

As others have touched upon, I wish the more "modern" players that I've spoken to better understood certain elements of OD&D. Improvisation, making due with the character you rolled instead of some Mary Sue superhero, abstract combat, quick and easy resolutions. Also the concept of D&D before it became a genre of its own.

I don't really have much of a Gygax adoration complex. He helped open the door, and early EGG stuff was good, but corporate AD&D 'official rules' EGG not so much. Speaking strictly in terms of his published work, not of him as a person.

[Deleted]

It matters to me in the sense that if there are more OD&D players, there will be more gaming opportunties and more products for the version of the game I prefer (and/or those like it). But apart from that, it's not important to me. That might be easier for me to say than others though, because I tend to view OD&D, B/X, BECMI, Holmes, and AD&D as very similar, so even though OD&D is what I prefer, I'm less attached to it in particular. I also more or less expect OD&D to be the least popular of the "old school" options. Unless you begin playing with an experienced group, or come to the game via a good retroclone, I think OD&D would make for a poor introduction to our shared style of play. The little brown books are many things, but not necessarily the best introduction to the hobby given how much water has passed under the bridge since they were released.

[verhaden]

More the merrier -- regardless of which version of D&D is played and how. Sit at the table, roll some dice, and have fun. I have enough cork sniffing hobbies.

[Deleted]

I've never had trouble filling a game, so no, I really don't care one way or the other.

Although it would be nice if I didn't have to cure people of bad habits from later editions.

[DungeonDevil]

OD&D and PnP RPGs in general will only be "popular" when an EMP obliterates all electronics in civilisation, and people are forced to find other ways to waste their little free time.

It would be nice if there were more people who a) had time for any recreation, and b) people who were open-minded and curious about RPGs. Many people are struggling right now, and gaming/hobbies/recreations are not even on the radar when folks don't have a job and don't have enough money to eat their next meal. The Age of Pastimes and Social Group Activities ended some time ago, very sadly. I grew up in an age when playing games was "family tiime" and I had friends who had time to hang out and do things, but that was Childhood.

Perhaps when the economy improves, the job market is more robust, people have loose cash to spend and time to spend in enjoyable acitivites, RPGs may experience a renaissance. Things are just very grim right now.

[smubee]

Perhaps I can offer an interesting (or even valuable) perspective, being one of the youngest members here.

I did not grow up in the 1970's, so I never got the chance to play OD&D when it came out, or Holmes Basic, or the earlier parts of AD&D 1e in its heyday.
I did not grow up in the 1980's, so I never got the chance to play AD&D 2e when it came out, or Moldvay/Cook or Frank Mentzer's sets.
I was born in 1996, the tail end of AD&D 2e and grew up through the acquisition of TSR by WOTC, although tabletop gaming was not on my mind at all back then.

By the time I got into D&D from a very close Uncle who I had been gaming (video games) with for my entire life, that's how we bonded -- it was near the end of 3.5, and the Player's Handbook for that aforementioned edition was my gateway into the hobby.

We only played a few games of 3.5, but it was around that time that I really started to go on the internet and gobble up as much information as possible about my new hobby. I read all about Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, and I became quite fascinated with the history of the game.

Now, my parents had always said that I should have been a child from the 70's : my favourite band was KISS, Planet of the Apes was like a religion to me, I loved Star Wars (although, who doesn't?), and I grew up playing older video game consoles ; everything from the NES to Atari. So when I got my first glance of the AD&D books on eBay, they looked like a work of art to me.

When I was turning 11, all that I asked for that year were AD&D 1st Edition books.. and boy did I get a lot of them. PHB, DMG, Manual of the Planes, etc. My family and I would go to a lot of comic book conventions and toy shows often, so any sign of anything to do with D&D, I'd pick it up.  This is how I slowly started building my collection of AD&D books. And I LOVED them.

Gary's writing style was so fascinating to me, and the art (to me) was appreciated the way that fine art is to most "normal" adults. Some criticize it nowadays, but I absolutely love the art of AD&D and OD&D. It has charm. Character. But I digress.

When I was researching D&D, I had always seen OD&D on eBay. But for a 10-12 year old, I simply could not afford it due to the prices that people were asking. But I had always wanted to play it..

So when I got a job and wasn't saving up for college, I ended up getting the WOTC Reprint, and found myself here with you fine folks. Then the following year I ended up finding a nice looking set for a decent enough price and got myself a 5th print white box set.


Back when I was a kid playing AD&D, we never played the current edition. I've never played 4th, despite my formative gaming years taking place between 2008 - 2012ish, which was when 4th was at the height of its popularity. None of my friends ever seemed to mind. I always introduced newcomers to AD&D because that was the root of the game as far as I was concerned.

But now that I have OD&D, every time I introduce the game to new people I start them with that edition. It can be as rules lite or rules heavy as the individual referee wants it to be. My experiences with it have been incredibly positive so far, and I welcome anybody to try out D&D with those rules. Then I could present other editions of the game saying "well here is a more rules heavy, but good version of the game", as I do believe that every edition has its merits.

I can see how people would not OD&D to become the popular version of the game -- I feel a similar way about Star Wars. When people who had mocked me my entire life for being so passionate about the original films went to go see The Force Awakens or Rogue One and said "Wow that was so good!!" I did get frustrated.

 I think the main thing here is that because we're all so passionate about something that is niche in a way, that if people started jumping on the bandwagon and claiming to have the same passion for it as we do, we'd all be frustrated.

[Sean McCoy]

Speaking as someone new to OD&D whose childhood memories around D&D are largely from 3E, I'd like to see more people come to OD&D just because I'd like to learn more about it. It's tools, interpretations, the context of the original game. I feel like a lot of that has been lost to time and we get sort of a cargo cult mentality surrounding newer games. I do like the niche-ness of OD&D, and I like (even at times its complex) simplicity. I'll be teaching my niece and nephew who are 6 and 9 D&D for the first time soon. We played Dungeon for the first time a week ago and they loved it. I think I'll start them off with OD&D because there's so much less to teach. Anyways, before I keep rambling: yes, I'd like more people to be introduced to OD&D because I feel like with more people paying attention to it, we'll get more information and analysis and discoveries about it, and that will help me better further my understanding of D&D as a whole.

[Deleted]

Interesting note about later editions. I have become friends with a younger man who cut his teeth on 3rd Ed and 3.5. After playing two or three sessions in my game he became an advocate of OD&D, bought the reprints, and now runs it. I asked him why, and he said, and I quote, "Because if I want to sneak up behind somebody and knock him out I say so, you roll dice, it either happens or it doesn't, and we get on with the d*mn game."

[jmccann]

I don't care if it is the most popular game, but having a sizeable pool of people is helpful. I think w/ the greater visibility of OD&D there is more likelihood of getting someone who might be focused on later editions to take an interest in the older style of play.

[Deleted]

I would love it if OD&D became more popular – the more the merrier. If it doesn't, however, that won't stop me from playing it, so in that sense it doesn't *matter* as such.

I don't think I could have started with OD&D (I started in the 1980's with Moldvay/Cook BX). As an experienced GM/player, though, it has become my favorite edition of D&D.

[Deleted]

Personally, I don't care about D&D as a brand - but I like playing with people that have the same sort of gaming philosophy that I do: Low-Fi, oriented on mid-20th century interpretations of the fantasy genre, and "casual" in the sense of "keeping a generally anti-consumerist tendency". That's pretty much what OD&D embodies to me, these days, and I'm happy that this spirit not only seems to endure, but also that it seems to be shared by many. Whether that is through D&D, RuneQuest, DCC, or whatever, I have to confess I don't really care. D&D is, more than anything, a reality, and still a pacemaker for the hobby in its entirety; I think this is a good thing.

[Deleted]

Mar 3, 2017 8:23:32 GMT -6 coffee said:

Mar 3, 2017 5:43:50 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

The reality is that I use the core of OD&D and "wing it" as needed, so my style of play is probably not a good one for a novice to the old school philosophy.

Or maybe it would be the "light dawning" moment for them, and they would finally get it. There is more to life than the rules, and the play is indeed the thing.

IMO it is important that the original Arnesonian OD&D become known again, resurrected from the almost immediate obscurity that it was banished too very early in the history of the game. For that to happen, we need to resurrect our education system and the teaching of critical thinking skills along with fun family times with storytelling/singing/fairy tales/legends, all kinds of games and the like. Kids are growing up so culturally deprived these days that they are not prepared for anything important and enjoying life is important. Get back to the original game where only the ref needed to know the rules, the way Arneson played the game.

Ideally there would be a re-write of OD&D into a more organized document, without any of the vague spots or ambiguities “cleaned up”, authorized by WotC. An unneutered OD&D that was organized would be a great boon. Once that was done, a historical reference document could accompany it saying here are the original terms that were deleted and replaced due to copyright issues, fully footnoted. Then it would be easy for anyone to put the entire original flavor back into his or her home table version.

[Finarvyn]

As for a re-write of OD&D, I've often been frustrated that the rules are scattered through the main set and the supplements. I know that some folks have attempted to blend it all together into a single booklet, but I'd like to see something official that did that along with original artwork and so on.

Arnesonian rules seem like they would be a difficult chore as I get the impression that Dave changed things a lot along the way and it could be hard to determine exactly what went in and what didn't.

[Deleted]

Mar 6, 2017 12:30:49 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

As for a re-write of OD&D, I've often been frustrated that the rules are scattered through the main set and the supplements. I know that some folks have attempted to blend it all together into a single booklet, but I'd like to see something official that did that along with original artwork and so on.

This!

Mar 6, 2017 12:30:49 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Arnesonian rules seem like they would be a difficult chore as I get the impression that Dave changed things a lot along the way and it could be hard to determine exactly what went in and what didn't.

It is quite easy and not a chore, Arnesonian OD&D (as I understand it)just means that you run the game very free form and truly remember that the rule books are really guidelines and your run your campaign the way you want and make the changes you want as you go and you take the campaign anywhere you want it to go. Arneson had Blackmoor and Gary had Greyhawk and we each have our own campaign. It is about personalizing your campaign and not imitating anyone else. It is the way Arneson played and the way Gygax played, even it if did not match his soapbox voice or business owner stance. Gygax did not practice what he preached by the time he started writing AD&D. He started with the open Arneson model and then gradually moved to a much more closed model as things progressed, even while he played the open model, he felt the need to write more rules for everyone else.

[Mr. Darke]

Yes and no. Popular or not I would still be playing. But new blood and interest is always good however, you do run the risk of straying too far from what made the game special.

More people in the pool will create a boon of creativity but, there will be well meaning but misguided folks who want to change too much. Of course, that's where we come in to keep them on track.

[Deleted]

Mar 7, 2017 6:11:24 GMT -6 Mr. Darke said:

Yes and no. Popular or not I would still be playing. But new blood and interest is always good however, you do run the risk of straying too far from what made the game special.

More people in the pool will create a boon of creativity but, there will be well meaning but misguided folks who want to change too much. Of course, that's where we come in to keep them on track.

I would love to have as many new people as possible. I am not worried about "well meaning but misguided folks", that genie was let out of the bottle a long time ago. I am only worried about the "not well meaning and severely misguided folks" with loud voices drowning everyone else out and that genie was also let out of the bottle a long time ago and entire forums are devoted to it.

No, I want many new people who will take the game in directions and to places no one has thought of yet, not by adding pages of rules "to bind them", but real innovations that will be fun to play.

[Chainsaw]

To the extent that more popular means easier to organize games, then yes, it matters.

[grodog]

Mar 8, 2017 16:44:36 GMT -6 Chainsaw said:

To the extent that more popular means easier to organize games, then yes, it matters.

Agreed. I'm not too worried about D&D being popular in general, or 1e or 0e being less popular than 5e or PF---as long as I can still play with cool folks, I'm fine with all of that!

Allan.

[The Wanderer]

Mar 2, 2017 20:14:43 GMT -6 scalydemon said:

do you care if OD&D becomes popular? Does it matter to you if more and more people get involved with playing this version or similar?

Just wanted to hear some opinions/thoughts thanks

Yes, I care if OD&D becomes popular and yes, it matters to me if more people play the game.

If it wasn't popular and no one new was coming in, I could still play it and have fun and all would be good in my corner of the multiverse. But that's not all that matters.

I think it matters that the game is viewed as playable. That it doesn't just become an historical piece for people to learn about while playing D&D 10th edition. Eventually the OD&D grognards will be no more and the new grognards will be for 3rd edition or even 5th edition.

I agree that if the presentation could be cleaned up and redone that would do wonders for the game. But that won't happen, so creating clones is the best that we can do in the current RPG landscape and I hope they bring in lots of new players who will buy PDFs and the eventual POD booklets and play the game with other new people. Thereby hopefully keeping the game alive and not just a curio for study.