otiv
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 133
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Post by otiv on Aug 14, 2016 23:41:24 GMT -6
I wanted to run an idea for a houserule past you guys. This one does bolt an additional subsystem onto the game, but bear with me.
The purpose of the rule is to mechanically enforce social mores in gameplay.
As our explorers journey through the wilderness and dungeons, they accumulate Grime points to represent how filthy and disgusting they get after adventuring. The players get: +1 Grime when they sleep in a dungeon +1 Grime every time they loot a corpse +1 Grime when they put on armor that was previously worn by a corpse +1d6 Grime at the end of combat if they engaged in melee with an edged weapon +1d3 Grime at the end of combat if they engaged in melee with a non-edged weapon (such as a mace) +2d6 Grime when they eat something vile
When a player's Grime exceeds their Charisma, they take penalties to reaction rolls. When a player's Grime exceeds their Constitution, they have an elevated chance of contracting a disease. Note that a character's Grime limits are tied to their ability scores and not to their level; higher levels shouldn't make adventurers any more tolerant of being covered in crap.
Grime is removed by bathing.
I want to encourage players to take care of their characters and keep them clean. Quantified values seem to be the way to attract attention to things in D&D, so I'm using that.
Does it seem like a bit much?
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Dohojar
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 114
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Post by Dohojar on Aug 14, 2016 23:50:12 GMT -6
Seems a little bit much to me to add that kind of realism to the game.
In the middle ages people were dirty and generally stinky. Even the upper class went weeks without bathing. Hell, even today there are people that don't shower and are dirty and stinky. Its just been in the last 100 years or so that it became an issue with society.
People tend to play rpgs to escape reality for a while and go kill monsters with their buddies. The last thing I would want to do is have to worry if my fictional character is clean. Just my two cents tho.
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otiv
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 133
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Post by otiv on Aug 15, 2016 0:00:39 GMT -6
While the realism and escapism comments are fair points, I have to disagree with the point about people in the middle ages being dirty and generally stinky. While that may be true compared to us contemporary people with our daily showers and our deodorant, Roman style bath houses were popular throughout Europe well into the middle ages. Bath houses didn't fall out of favor until the plague epidemics of the later medieval period.
I think part of this is that I get kind of bored when the players always head to the tavern for their shady quest-giver/rumor-monger needs. I mean, overhearing some senators in the sauna discuss the matters pertaining to goblin tribal insurrection in the North seems like it would be an interesting twist on the formula.
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Post by Porphyre on Aug 15, 2016 7:26:45 GMT -6
Nothing to say about realism vs. escapism, this is another debate. D&D games are stock full of anachronisms, so I wouldn't mind people in the game-world to hold similar views on corporeal hygiene than nowadays.
My main objection would be with the book-keeping. If needed, I would just assume "just-emerged-from-a-smelly-dungeon" adventurers to be covered in gorn/gunge/ooze/molds/gelatinous cube refuse/whatever, and impose a reaction penalty until they have 1sp to 1gp spent having a warm bath.
Otherwise, maybe I would also extend this considerations to others aspects. Do the PC keep their armor/weapons in town? That could also be frowned upon, either by authorities, or just be considered "uncouth" by polite, effete aristocrats.
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otiv
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 133
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Post by otiv on Aug 15, 2016 10:57:38 GMT -6
Book-keeping is a fair point. I don't think it's any more difficult than tracking encumbrance or prepared spells (in isolation) but it is yet another thing that would have to be tracked on top of everything else.
I should clarify that Grime points are also meant to model all the blood splatter and gory mess that comes from combat (because I run games with that sort of tone) hence the post-combat Grime accumulation. People in the medieval ages might not have been as fastidious as people today, but I don't imagine they went home from battle still covered in other people's entrails and just... resigned themselves to being smeared with guts for the rest of their lives. Didn't Conan wipe himself off in one of R.E. Howard's stories?
*edit* But then I guess it depends on culture too. Contrary to the modern-day image of vikings as filthy barbarians with horned helms, people at the time often commented on how clean the vikings were. Granted they would get stinky after weeks on a boat at sea, but that just made them appreciate baths all the more. I understand vikings would wipe themselves off with wash rags daily, clean and braid their beards, and wear clean clothes daily when possible.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2016 18:20:15 GMT -6
The notion that people didn't bathe in the middle ages is a Victorian fiction.
I don't worry about characters bathing in game play, any more than I worry about characters taking a dump. Certain bodily functions are simply assumed as happening.
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Post by ritt on Aug 15, 2016 18:26:15 GMT -6
I think dwarves should get bonuses for having high Grime.
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otiv
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 133
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Grime
Aug 15, 2016 18:28:58 GMT -6
Post by otiv on Aug 15, 2016 18:28:58 GMT -6
What I might do with this is just scale it back to a trap or series of traps in a dungeon populated with monsters that track by scent. I could have numerous weak monsters that spew foul smelling spores when slain, and a more powerful monster later on that only pursues adventurers that smell strongly. Players then have an incentive to wash themselves, but it's only relevant for this particular thing.
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randyb
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 92
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Post by randyb on Aug 15, 2016 19:29:41 GMT -6
Even better: if a player shows up to the game deficient in personal hygiene, apply corresponding penalties to their character. Nothing like an incentive to change behavior!
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otiv
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 133
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Grime
Aug 15, 2016 19:42:59 GMT -6
Post by otiv on Aug 15, 2016 19:42:59 GMT -6
Even better: if a player shows up to the game deficient in personal hygiene, apply corresponding penalties to their character. Nothing like an incentive to change behavior! I am happy to say that I have not had that problem. I only roll dice with a particular circle of friends, and they all have passably good hygiene.
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Post by talysman on Aug 15, 2016 20:07:08 GMT -6
I think being aware of grime is a good idea, but like others, don't like the tracking part.
I'd probably just assume that once adventurers have been on the road/in the dungeon for a full day, or if they have certain events like falling into a cesspool, they are at effectively half Charisma until they've had a chance to clean up. This doesn't apply to any henchmen who have gone through the same grimy events -- they won't suddenly abandon your service because you stink as much as they do.
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otiv
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 133
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Grime
Aug 15, 2016 20:11:25 GMT -6
Post by otiv on Aug 15, 2016 20:11:25 GMT -6
It might be easier to say that the state of being grimy imposes a penalty to reaction rolls, reduces your odds of surprising enemies (they can smell you approaching), and factors into chances of contracting a disease.
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Dohojar
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 114
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Grime
Aug 15, 2016 23:51:31 GMT -6
Post by Dohojar on Aug 15, 2016 23:51:31 GMT -6
While the realism and escapism comments are fair points, I have to disagree with the point about people in the middle ages being dirty and generally stinky. While that may be true compared to us contemporary people with our daily showers and our deodorant, Roman style bath houses were popular throughout Europe well into the middle ages. Bath houses didn't fall out of favor until the plague epidemics of the later medieval period. I think part of this is that I get kind of bored when the players always head to the tavern for their shady quest-giver/rumor-monger needs. I mean, overhearing some senators in the sauna discuss the matters pertaining to goblin tribal insurrection in the North seems like it would be an interesting twist on the formula. fair enough.
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Grime
Aug 19, 2016 13:35:23 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by xerxez on Aug 19, 2016 13:35:23 GMT -6
lil too much distraction for me. I would better like the idea of dicing for possible bacterial contamination when parties swill and grog in dingy and filthy taverns of lesser reputation...
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Grime
Aug 21, 2016 8:42:32 GMT -6
Post by simrion on Aug 21, 2016 8:42:32 GMT -6
Disease rules in Blackmoor supplement.
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Grime
Sept 9, 2016 20:29:02 GMT -6
Post by scottenkainen on Sept 9, 2016 20:29:02 GMT -6
I don't worry about characters bathing in game play, any more than I worry about characters taking a dump. Certain bodily functions are simply assumed as happening. There's good gaming potential in forcing your PCs to stop and take dumps every so often, like the time I had a PC on watch duty have to go and was caught by ghouls, literally, with his pants down.
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Post by strangebrew on Sept 9, 2016 22:43:58 GMT -6
I like the idea, but I would probably simplify it to something like -1 to reaction rolls per day in a dungeon, -1 per week in the wilderness. I think things like this can really aid the immersion of the game and remind players that their characters are in a somewhat living world as long as there isn't too much bookkeeping. It's not such a burden since it can be removed with a bath with soap and laundry. Also the laundry and bath will cost a few gold pieces - just because I like to separate players from their cash as much as possible. I don't regulate the bowel activity of characters, though I have used such solitary activities as the hook for a random encounter. Nothing like a stirge in the butt to keep players motivated. EDIT: Should've read the post by scottenkainen before posting...great minds think alike.
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Grime
Sept 10, 2016 5:05:48 GMT -6
Post by Finarvyn on Sept 10, 2016 5:05:48 GMT -6
I like the base concept of what you describe, but maybe "Grunge" fits better than "Grime"? Anyway, this kind of thing would help separate the nobility from the unwashed masses in the game, and perhaps influence player character game-choices. For example, in my campaigns if a person finds better armor they just grab it and upgrade without thought, but with those rules a noble or Paladin character might decide that this armor is beneath them so that they don't take a hit in Grime. Disease rules in Blackmoor supplement. I was going to mention these as well. Of course, I also don't use them so I probably wouldn't use that part of the Grime rules either.
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 10, 2016 8:08:05 GMT -6
The notion that people didn't bathe in the middle ages is a Victorian fiction. Everybody knows that the medievals were superstitious, ignorant, and filthy little short people who lived on a flat earth and died of old age at 30.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Grime
Sept 10, 2016 11:25:59 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2016 11:25:59 GMT -6
AD&D diseases.
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otiv
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 133
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Grime
Sept 10, 2016 12:08:35 GMT -6
Post by otiv on Sept 10, 2016 12:08:35 GMT -6
I like the idea, but I would probably simplify it to something like -1 to reaction rolls per day in a dungeon, -1 per week in the wilderness. I think things like this can really aid the immersion of the game and remind players that their characters are in a somewhat living world as long as there isn't too much bookkeeping. It's not such a burden since it can be removed with a bath with soap and laundry. Also the laundry and bath will cost a few gold pieces - just because I like to separate players from their cash as much as possible. I don't regulate the bowel activity of characters, though I have used such solitary activities as the hook for a random encounter. Nothing like a stirge in the butt to keep players motivated. EDIT: Should've read the post by scottenkainen before posting...great minds think alike. I've recently been reading about viking/Nordic concepts of Innangard and Utangard. A character that spends too long in the woods without a bath is going to look more and more like some kind of outlaw "forest man", further removed from the lawful realm of the Innangard. I'll probably go with this system, but just add the extra penalty for looting corpses and wearing looted armor.
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Grime
Sept 14, 2016 5:09:14 GMT -6
Post by DungeonDevil on Sept 14, 2016 5:09:14 GMT -6
A noisome PC has a harder time of hiding in shadows or in crowds. He would attract unwanted attention and clear rooms -- or whole dungeons with his B.O.! If you have a Grime stat for PCs, in the name of balance, you must also ascribe such to monsters, thus neccessitating an Olfactory (or "Sniff") roll...or Save vs. Pyew!.
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Grime
Sept 15, 2016 2:40:44 GMT -6
Post by zarathustra on Sept 15, 2016 2:40:44 GMT -6
Not quite sure how tracking Grime is fun or why DM can't just declare- you're Grimy! or, you're bloody Grimy! whenever appropriate...
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