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Post by machfront on Aug 1, 2016 2:32:51 GMT -6
I was thinking about my early experiences with D&D and rpgs in general and the era, etc.
I finally realized that there was something missing. Not something enormous, but something well of note at least.
Somewhere/somewhen from at least 1978 all the way to around about 1988.
In nearly the whole of that time-frame there very much needed to be an affordable, rules-lite, intro-friendly rpg that took itself at least mostly seriously that was not D&D nor named anything similar.
In this case, for obvious reasons, Tunnels & Trolls would not apply (though, in reality it's the closest to what I'm imagining).
Ya see, when I began gaming (fall of '86) and a handful of years prior there were a good number of kids whose folks just KNEW that D&D was "the tool of SATAN!", etc.
Had I known at the time of T&T I'd have devoured it and I would not have reacted as I did when I saw it much, much later: "Wot? No cleric and no real thief? Huh? No monsters?...Ugh. Those spell names are really stupid."
Nope. I'd just have had a problem with the spell names and that would have been more than enough.
Also, since it was called Tunnels & Trolls my fundamentalist, Southern Baptist, much-too-influenced-by-The-700-Club parents (mainly my mother) would/could have too easily drawn a parallel to D&D.
I was able to get MERP because it was a "...game based in the world of The Hobbit...".
So. Take something like what we have today in Swords & Wizardry: WhiteBox, Swords & Wizardry Core or any edition of Tunnels & Trolls itself or Swords & Six-Siders or whatever and make it/them a tiny bit more 'introductory' and include a few paragraphs that explain things like ability checks (SRs in T&T) and how a character's background prior to adventuring such as growing up as a farmer or hunter or bookworm or whatever may have on checks, etc. and a kid like me would have been rescued in any number of ways. A couple of short paragraphs actually explaining what house rules are and how that works and so on would have gone a very long way for the likes of me as well...
I'd (or rather, 1986 me...or just before or just after me) give ANYTHING to have some rules set like of the above with such additions and plenty of pre-made beasts, treasure, magic and simple and a lower price and a full-force fantasy rpg name that did not allude to "D&D".
I suppose, since the market at the time didn't really respond to that that there was either not the demand I imagine or that demand was silent (as myself) and unknown... though I think it's odd that that demand was unknown, since it was gamer common knowledge at the time that a good number of kids were unable to play D&D or having to hide their D&D stuff in highly imaginative and ever-changing ways all the time and wasting much more money than the usual gamer as parents inevitably found and unceremoniously threw away those horrible, demon-summoning volumes in the trash as mine did...
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bea
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by bea on Aug 1, 2016 3:25:53 GMT -6
Aren't you essentially asking for B/X or BECMI, but with a completely different name? Like maybe "Labyrinth Lord"?
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Post by machfront on Aug 1, 2016 3:46:13 GMT -6
Sort of, but much, much easier... and with text that is explicitly introductory (without both talking down to the audience and so verbose (as Mentzer/BECMI was)...and for it to be in full distribution in 1978 to 1988.
Imagine S&W:WB or the first to fourth editions of Tunnels & Trolls but with such brief explanatory text as I mentioned above. Such a thing could have saved my (and many other kids like me) life with regards to gaming in that time-span...
If I'd had B/X at the time it wouldn't have mattered because:
A) I couldn't as it would have said "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover and would therefore be "Satanic" and
B) even B/X at that stage would be too wordy and complicated (even for a lover of reading like me).
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bea
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by bea on Aug 2, 2016 8:54:49 GMT -6
Do you know of any game today that fits your requirements?
Moreover, do you think there is still a need for one? For similar or different reasons.
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Post by jcstephens on Aug 2, 2016 9:00:06 GMT -6
Changing the name wouldn't have made any difference to the witch hunters. I was there, and even Traveller players were feeling the heat.
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bea
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Post by bea on Aug 2, 2016 9:06:12 GMT -6
Changing the name wouldn't have made any difference to the witch hunters. I was there, and even Traveller players were feeling the heat. And in modern times there are fundamentalists of all denomination who claim that Harry Potter leads to devil worship... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 9:28:21 GMT -6
Most people are booger-eating morons.
Most people have always been booger-eating morons, and most people will always be booger-eating morons.
You can't cure stupid.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 11:31:05 GMT -6
I suppose, since the market at the time didn't really respond to that that there was either not the demand I imagine or that demand was silent (as myself) and unknown... though I think it's odd that that demand was unknown, since it was gamer common knowledge at the time that a good number of kids were unable to play D&D or having to hide their D&D stuff in highly imaginative and ever-changing ways all the time and wasting much more money than the usual gamer as parents inevitably found and unceremoniously threw away those horrible, demon-summoning volumes in the trash as mine did... There was little demand for such a product because the reaction against Dungeons & Dragons was what made D&D popular. It's more cool if it's forbidden. And the product you were looking for was Runequest. |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Aug 2, 2016 13:41:59 GMT -6
Really? Even Traveller?! In the stated timeframe my family had moved from the East Coast to Missouri at the beginning of the Satanic Panic (Gah! Talk about culture-shock!), and D&D was the only name that kept coming up. Traveller didn't seem to even be on the Religious Right's radar. I didn't even know of any other RPG -- with the exception of Star Frontiers -- until around 2001 or so. That was the problem: D&D was the highest-profile game of its kind. Period. Everything else faded into the woodwork. There was no competition.To avoid any such attention a game then should have been called something like BLAND or GENERIC, and avoided trigger-words.  |
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Post by ritt on Aug 2, 2016 14:57:36 GMT -6
Changing the name wouldn't have made any difference to the witch hunters. I was there, and even Traveller players were feeling the heat. Yes. There is no point in trying to placate those with a censorious mentality, because they're always going to be upset about something, often for weird motives that have little or nothing to do with the actual content of the "Offending" work. Also, every inch you ever cede just makes them bolder the next time. |
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Post by ritt on Aug 2, 2016 15:02:38 GMT -6
Easy? Introductory? Simpler even than Moldvay/Cook? Not D&D? Circa 1986?
West End Games Ghostbusters RPG.
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Post by Falconer on Aug 2, 2016 16:39:34 GMT -6
So why does MERP not fit the bill? Not easy enough?
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Post by tkdco2 on Aug 2, 2016 17:11:35 GMT -6
MERP is easy compared to Rolemaster, but definitely not easier than B/X. Dont get me wrong; I love MERP, but I would have been lost if I had made that my first rpg.
The first game I actually bought was Warlock, which was a D&D variant. I found the combat and magic systems too confusing. It wasn't until my father bought me a copy of Basic D&D that I was able to understand the game.
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Post by simrion on Aug 2, 2016 17:49:32 GMT -6
How about Advanced Fighting Fantasy? Three stats and d6 dice mechanic. My intro to Traveller was through a fundamentalist GM. D&D was verboten but scoff was "safe" apparently...
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Post by Zenopus on Aug 2, 2016 19:06:12 GMT -6
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Post by geoffrey on Aug 2, 2016 19:20:18 GMT -6
Most people are booger-eating morons. Most people have always been booger-eating morons, and most people will always be booger-eating morons. You can't cure stupid. That's almost a quote from the Vatican's recently-retired Latin expert: "The world is full of stupid people who are going to live and die with their stupid beliefs. What are you going to do?" |
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Post by talysman on Aug 3, 2016 11:51:24 GMT -6
I suppose, since the market at the time didn't really respond to that that there was either not the demand I imagine or that demand was silent (as myself) and unknown... though I think it's odd that that demand was unknown, since it was gamer common knowledge at the time that a good number of kids were unable to play D&D or having to hide their D&D stuff in highly imaginative and ever-changing ways all the time and wasting much more money than the usual gamer as parents inevitably found and unceremoniously threw away those horrible, demon-summoning volumes in the trash as mine did... There was little demand for such a product because the reaction against Dungeons & Dragons was what made D&D popular. It's more cool if it's forbidden. And the product you were looking for was Runequest. Not Runequest, but there was a version of Basic Roleplaying around the time that fit the bill. Don't recall the name, but it explained "What is role-playing?" by walking you through the way rolls worked. Skills improved through either training or the standard roll over skill checks. What would have made it better would be a d6-based resolution system, maybe a merger between ideas of TFT and BRP. And, since you can't get rid of the anti-D&D crazies, you leverage their crazy against them by making the setting a time-honored part of western culture: Arthurian, Greek mythology, or Grimm's fairy tales, or even biblical times. Are the crazy people really going to say that pretending to be King Arthur or Samson is going to lead you to Satan? If so, there's a built-in skepticism, even among religious folks. |
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Post by Falconer on Aug 3, 2016 11:52:54 GMT -6
The arms race for all RPG companies was always towards heaviness, with introductory sets put out as mediocre afterthoughts. At one point it seemed like everyone was trying to put out Choose-Your-Own-Adventure style games as possible gateways into the RPG hobby. I never saw any appeal in sologames, but, hey, good on them for trying.
ICE’s RPG books always came across as dense and formidable. Maybe it was the layout; maybe it was the too-serious tone; maybe they really did just cram too much in there. In 2007 they came out with a nice edition called Rolemaster Express, which is a very inviting introductory RPG book, like MERP but curing all the problems I mentioned above. If only they could have pulled that off in the 90s, and paired it with a somewhat funner version of Bree and the Barrow-downs, they could have had a real all-time hit.
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Post by geoffrey on Aug 3, 2016 12:22:26 GMT -6
I was thoroughly disappointed with MERP. It didn't feel like Middle-earth to me at all.
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Post by peterlind on Aug 3, 2016 13:37:12 GMT -6
I was introduced to D&D back in 1977 by a friend in school. My friend explained to me the basics of the game and walked me through generating a character. I remember going through the equipment list and spending my gold. I later played in a game with another school friend as a player. For those first games, I did not have a copy of the rules, nor did I need a copy of the rules to learn how to play the game. Incidentally, I found it easy to get into D&D because I was already interested in the fantasy genre as well as traditional western myths & legends, having already read Tolkien and C.S. Lewis's Narnia series as well as tales of Arthur & the Knights of the Round Table, Robin Hood, Greek myths, etc. At that point, I saw D&D as no more dangerous than reading some of these works. . . .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2016 4:06:17 GMT -6
HA! This is what I started to play RPGs with! Aaaaaaaaaaaawesome! Have not seen those booklets in 20 years! Thanks, man! |
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Post by smubee on Aug 4, 2016 10:29:36 GMT -6
Easy? Introductory? Simpler even than Moldvay/Cook? Not D&D? Circa 1986? West End Games Ghostbusters RPG. So I looked up the Ghostbusters RPG and although I'm not even a fan of the franchise, the RPG is available for free in a PDF online. It looks like a lot of fun. One thing that I love about West End Games is that it made the worlds of their franchise RPGs feel absolutely real. I loved flipping through their Star Wars RPG when I was a kid (it was the first RPG that I ever played!) because it made the world feel so alive. The Ghostbusters one is very similar and I can't wait to give it a try. |
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Post by ritt on Aug 4, 2016 13:55:59 GMT -6
WEG Ghostbusters was way, way ahead of it's time. It's like one of the better 21st century "Story games", only from freaking 1986.
I think it's popularity was capped by the simple fact that comedy (As opposed to just silliness or lightheartedness) is actually really hard.
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Post by vladtolenkov on Aug 4, 2016 16:11:41 GMT -6
Ghostbusters was designed by the crew at Chaosium including Greg Stafford who also designed what I think of as the best rules light intro RPG of all time: Prince Valiant the Storytelling Game. I've got my copy and it perfectly captures medieval adventure in the vein of Hal Foster's comic strip with just about the simplest system ever. Two stats and no dice--everthing is resolved by flipping coins (although you could easily substitute dice if you prefer). There's a one page rules intro so you can start playing almost immediately. Brilliant.
Defeat in the game means just that: defeat. You might be dead if it was truly lethal situation, but it also might just mean you were unhorsed in the joust and are a bit bruised and battered. There are no hit points to keep track of--just your pools of coins.
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Post by peterlind on Aug 4, 2016 21:04:58 GMT -6
More directly responding to the initial post . . . Having played mainly FRPGs through the period in question, I think that the Satanic scare was inevitable because D&D was new on the scene and its subject matter included fantasy, magic, wizards, etc. So I am doubtful that a more "introductory" text could have avoided that situation. Another thing to clarify my earlier post. Perhaps I am the exception, but I just did not see the D&D game as easy or hard to play. Back then, it was just D&D or AD&D. I don't remember having discussions with people about D&D being too hard or too easy to play. I also did not experience situations where kids were afraid to play, but perhaps that is just my experience. Other RPGs have been listed up this thread, but let's face it . . . D&D was the elephant in the room during the late 70s and through the 80s, and the other RPGs did not really compete with D&D. In my personal experience, a game that came out in 1981 and was pretty popular at conventions in my neck of the woods was Champions, which later spawned Fantasy Hero and other games based on the Hero System. However, I do not think that this is the kind of game that the OP'er was looking for . .. . Thus, due to the times being what they were, and RPGs being in the state of development that they were, what the OP'er was looking or hoping for did not exist and likely could not have existed in the time frame in question, without past history being revised. |
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Post by Zenopus on Aug 4, 2016 22:34:21 GMT -6
HA! This is what I started to play RPGs with! Aaaaaaaaaaaawesome! Have not seen those booklets in 20 years! Thanks, man! You're welcome! I greatly enjoyed those gamebooks when they came out & played the same character (Fori I the Dwarf) through five of them. Never found the Mirkwood one back then, though I have it now. An enterprising fellow turned the system in those books into a whole RPG in 30 pages: Middle-Earth Adventure Game (MEAG) |
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Post by tkdco2 on Aug 5, 2016 1:19:11 GMT -6
I had some of those gamebooks, as well as the Lone Wolf books and even the D&D version of the "Choose Your Adventure" books.
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Post by talysman on Aug 5, 2016 10:27:29 GMT -6
More directly responding to the initial post . . . Having played mainly FRPGs through the period in question, I think that the Satanic scare was inevitable because D&D was new on the scene and its subject matter included fantasy, magic, wizards, etc. So I am doubtful that a more "introductory" text could have avoided that situation. I think the satanic scare was inevitable because it has always existed, and still exists. There are a core group of people who are permanently scared of Satan trying to corrupt children and the world in general. As new things become popular, these people immediately look for the satanic influences. All that really changes is that there are cycles where that core group itself lures others into joining their cause and everyone's talking about the latest satanic scare for several years, until eventually it falls out of favor and the core group becomes a joke to the general population. D&D and thus role-playing was at risk because of what had happened immediately before it. In the '60s, the Process Church, Anton La Vey's Church of Satan, and the Manson Family were in the news. The hippies spurred an occult revival and interest in eastern religion. So, there were open challenges to the dominance of Christianity plus imagery traditionally thought of as "Satanic". Lots of people were primed to see Satan on the rise, so they were looking for the next satanic assault. D&D got picked, so as it grew in popularity, rumors about it being satanic spread, and both seemed to reach their peak at about the same time. So, yeah, there's a problem with trying to have a simpler introductory RPG at that time, since the accusers were already primed and waiting for anything new and popular. The only way it could have worked is if, as I suggested, the subject matter were somehow beyond reproach, something really central already to western culture, so that any attack on it as "Satanic" would itself seem like an attack on society. (This might become important in the near future, because I'm kind of expecting another satanic panic in five to ten years. The focus will be on something else, rather than RPGs, but I'm sure RPGs will get caught in the crossfire. Brace yourselves!) |
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Post by ritt on Aug 5, 2016 12:03:01 GMT -6
(This might become important in the near future, because I'm kind of expecting another satanic panic in five to ten years. The focus will be on something else, rather than RPGs, but I'm sure RPGs will get caught in the crossfire. Brace yourselves!) I was just thinking the other day that it's been a long time (Thankfully) since we had a pop culture moral panic. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 5, 2016 14:25:06 GMT -6
An interesting notion, that of needing an introductory D&D back in the day.
I think that when our group found D&D it was as an extension to miniatures gaming, and so the terminology and the concept of converting from army-based fun to character-based fun wasn't as big or a reach. We were familiar with the terminology of the game and it didn't seem like much of a learning curve, and if we made mistakes we just tried to get it right later on as we re-interpreted how the game was supposed to be played. Also, Xerox machines were rare and the internet didn't exist so most folks taught others how to play rather than them going out to buy a rulebook and then having to figure it out for themselves. To this day I find reading rulebooks to be sort of boring and would much rather sign up for a game in a store or at a convention where someone can show me the basics and I can go read up on the specifics later.
Could the hobby have benefitted by having an intro rules set? Probably, but keep in mind that this was one of the goals of the Holmes set and it came out in the late 1970's so the hobby wasn't that old at the time. Today there are many "quickstart" or Basic rules sets that can be bought or downloaded that most folks can get a good understanding of a game pretty quickly.
Also, I think that most RPGs nowadays are "better" written, which is to say that they are written to explain and teach in addition to giving players the rules. That's probably why they are so much thicker and I dislike them a lot more. Give me a thin pamphlet with Gygax-speak over almost anything else out there any day!
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