HTK, pardon my dunceocity

[oldkat]

Being pretty much an ignoramus about CM and its workings (even most of its history I forget 10 minutes after reading...I hate my brain!)...

something caught my eye t'other day about heroes and super ones; HTK. For the former its listed as 20, and for the latter, 50.

So, (1) what was the mechanism used in determining the HTK for these and other playing pieces that appeared in the Fantasy Supplement section?
(2) Did anyone back then (attention Mike, Rob, Steve, etc.)find issue with the particular results, or use their own method/s of determination?

[Finarvyn]

Jul 27, 2016 10:38:12 GMT -6 oldkat said:

what was the mechanism used in determining the HTK for these and other playing pieces that appeared in the Fantasy Supplement section?

I wasn't there, but much of what I've read seems to imply that Gary did a lot of things by "gut feel" rather than some elaborate equations. I believe that Gronan has confirmed this sort of thing about the development of OD&D on many occasions on these boards, although I can't recall if he specifically addressed Chainmail. Along those same lines, I believe that in OD&D there is a statement about Armor Class and how it is a general assessment of difficulty to be hit as well as actual armor protection, and this just illustrates how things were determined back in the day. Remember also that none of these games were intended to be a strict and exact historical reenactment as much as a general simulation.

[derv]

Jul 27, 2016 10:38:12 GMT -6 oldkat said:

something caught my eye t'other day about heroes and super ones; HTK. For the former its listed as 20, and for the latter, 50.

oldkat , you may have to elaborate on what you are really asking here. Is this a question about Chainmail or OD&D? After reading Fins response and some of the terminology you're using, I'm not sure.

For instance, I'm not certain that Chainmail actually uses the term "Hits to Kill". This sounds like a D&Dism that hearkens back to Arneson. The idea is there though and there is similar language. It does talk about cumulative hits and simultaneous hits being necessary to kill certain figures. For a Hero, it would take four simultaneous hits by any regular troop types. For a Superhero, it would take eight. That means a group of something like goblins would need to score that many consecutive hits in a single combat in order to kill them. Otherwise, no damage is retained. You scored three hits during the first round and none the second. No damage is inflicted.

Differently, figures like Giants take cumulative hits. Hits need not be consecutive.

Other figures are immune or impervious to normal attacks, like Dragons and Elementals. Such figures must be killed by other fantastic types (those found on the Fantasy Combat Table). The Fantasy Combat Table is a single hit kills system.

I think the numbers you listed above for Heroes and Superheroes are their point values, which is how much it would cost to buy that particular figure. Each side would get so many points to build an army before play begins.

Here's a post by Dan that tries to make a connection between point values in Chainmail and Arneson's use of "hits" in his campaign. Not sure if this is what you're driving at, but it's worth a read.

Hidden in Shadows Blog

[18 Spears]

HTK was used in judge guild products so didn't have to say 'hit points' and get sued by tsr

www.acaeum.com/jg/UniversalSystemRules.html

[oldkat]

For a Hero, it would take four simultaneous hits by any regular troop types. For a Superhero, it would take eight. That means a group of something like goblins would need to score that many consecutive hits in a single combat in order to kill them. Otherwise, no damage is retained. You scored three hits during the first round and none the second. No damage is inflicted.

Ahh, right. Yeah, I did misunderstand this. But I definitely like this (the above).

I think the numbers you listed above for Heroes and Superheroes are their point values, which is how much it would cost to buy that particular figure. Each side would get so many points to build an army before play begins.

Again, right.

[Deleted]

If the question is "How did Gary and Jeff decide point values for figures," the answer is "They pulled some numbers out of their @sses that looked about right, and diddled with them during playtest."