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Post by peterlind on May 24, 2016 17:30:56 GMT -6
Liches were first introduced in Greyhawk, but I am not aware if there were any official rules for turning liches until AD&D. In OD&D the turn undead table stops at 8th level cleric vs. vampires. In B/X, the table is extended to up to 11th level cleric vs. vampires. What do you think should be the approach on liches? Should liches be turnable at all? If so, should they be turned as vampires? Or should the table be expanded to make them tougher to turn than vampires? (i.e. the approach that was taken in AD&D).
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Elphilm
Level 3 Conjurer
ELpH vs. Coil
Posts: 68 
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Post by Elphilm on May 25, 2016 2:18:45 GMT -6
I keep liches immune to turning. I like that the original turn undead table stops at cleric name level, and vampires never become automatically turnable (let alone automatically destroyed). The basic idea of the turning ability is forcing morale checks on automatically hostile monsters that never check morale under normal conditions. Once you get up to intelligent undead creatures, there's at least a slim chance that they're not automatically hostile, and the turning ability becomes less of a necessity.
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Post by Vile Traveller on May 25, 2016 2:29:47 GMT -6
What! You would parlay with liches? Be ye for Law, or be ye for Chaos?*  * On this forum, no prizes for recognising a Holmes quote. |
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Elphilm
Level 3 Conjurer
ELpH vs. Coil
Posts: 68
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Post by Elphilm on May 25, 2016 2:37:41 GMT -6
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Post by talysman on May 25, 2016 10:05:33 GMT -6
Liches were first introduced in Greyhawk, but I am not aware if there were any official rules for turning liches until AD&D. In OD&D the turn undead table stops at 8th level cleric vs. vampires. In B/X, the table is extended to up to 11th level cleric vs. vampires. What do you think should be the approach on liches? Should liches be turnable at all? If so, should they be turned as vampires? Or should the table be expanded to make them tougher to turn than vampires? (i.e. the approach that was taken in AD&D). I definitely think liches should not be turnable. I agree with Elphilm that "turn undead" is meant to be a morale effect (undead are frightened by a truly holy person) rather than some kind of superpower, as it usually gets cast in AD&D and later editions (which is why they run into debates about how often it can be used or what happens when a cleric uses their "power" on a cornered undead.) Plus, although it *could* be an oversight, I think it's telling that Greyhawk doesn't expand the Turn Undead table, and even specifically exempts shadows. The way I see it, liches are magic-users so powerful and so full of hubris that they don't fear the gods. They take any risk they can to maintain their own existence beyond death. Does that *really* sound like someone who would be afraid of a priest with a cross? If anything, the presence of a lich should make other undead harder to turn. |
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Post by aldarron on May 25, 2016 10:54:49 GMT -6
My take on this is similar but different. The Dalluhn/BTPbD mss. has the same table as is found in M&M except for one difference. Patriarchs automatically turn or destroy all undead, including vampiers (the "7" is replaced by a "T" on the table). So this older turn undead table has Patriarchs automatically turning or destroying all forms of undead in the game. Also I don't see the turning function being related in any way to morale, but someting more akin to a protection spell. You might be interested to read this blog post I wrote on the origin and use of the turning mechanic link |
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jun 17, 2016 19:15:04 GMT -6
I don't see the turning function being related in any way to morale, but someting more akin to a protection spell. You might be interested to read this blog post I wrote on the origin and use of the turning mechanic linkThat's some interesting discussion there; I wonder how D&D would have evolved if the Cleric hadn't been able to turn undead, or just could turn Vampires. Level-draining undead would be a LOT more scary without a turn ability, even just encountered individually. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 18, 2016 8:58:22 GMT -6
I'll have to hunt around, but I seem to recall an interpretation of the "turn undead" ability mentioned by either Gronan or Svenny from the way that Gary or Dave actually did it.
There was something about the way the rule was poorly worded or incompletely worded. Something about the undead only backing away for three turns, maybe? A combination of my bad memory and new computer (I'm sure I saved it on my old one) and I only have a general sense of something kind of kewl.
Anyone else remember this thread?
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 18, 2016 14:54:28 GMT -6
I still think it would be cooler if clerics turned INTO undead.  |
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Post by Red Baron on Jun 18, 2016 21:36:41 GMT -6
I still think it would be cooler if clerics turned INTO undead. Do you know what the original thread on that was titled? I can't track it down. |
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Post by talysman on Jun 19, 2016 8:52:04 GMT -6
I still think it would be cooler if clerics turned INTO undead. Do you know what the original thread on that was titled? I can't track it down. I believe it was a thread about mistaken interpretations we had when we first played the game. I remember posting about "staff elementals", and I remember the clerics turning into undead. |
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 19, 2016 9:11:17 GMT -6
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