Trying to get into OD&D/OSR: Where do I start?

[darien]

Alright, I am a newbie to OD&D and a lot of the old-school retro-clones in general and I am wondering where should I begin and what books should I look at first. What books contain which materials and which OSR retro-clones correspond to which editions of D&D? I'm also interested in Holmes Basic D&D but I hear that only goes up to Level 3 (unless there are expansions, I am unsure if there are). I started with D&D 3.5e and then largely moved onto White Wolf (both Old and New World of Darkness) and Big Eyes Small Mouth, but I really want to get into old-school roleplaying and see how things were in the beginning.

So, some questions I'd like to start off with....

1. Is there any way I can find PDF's or affordable copies of OD&D's core booklets and its subsequent supplements legally?

2. How necessary is the Greyhawk supplement? I know the Thief class is introduced there as are some spells, but will not having it affect gameplay of OD&D too much? Any other classes in other supplements?

3. How is Holmes Basic D&D and does it have expansions beyond Level 3 (whether official or fan-made?)

4. How are the retro-clones? Which ones are the closest to OD&D or Holmes and which ones would you recommend most for a new player or new DM?

[premmy]

Hi, darien!

The answer to the first part of your fourth question is that the closest match to ODnD would be Swords and Wizardry from Mythmere Games, or at least one particular version of it, depending on exactly what material you want included. It's still not identical to ODnD, but a pretty close match.

Labyrinth Lord is another pretty popular option for retrocloning the earliest, non-Advanced versions of DnD, but I think it's closer to Basic than to Original.

Regarding Question 2, I personally always thought the Thief class was a bad idea and has hurt the game more than it improved it, but that's just me.

[scottenkainen]

1. Unless you define "affordable" as around $200, you are better off with a retro-clone set of rules for now. Swords & Wizardry is a great one, but there is a links folder here with LOTS of retro-clones to pick from.

2. The Greyhawk supplement added a lot of new options to the game. It was 1975's version of the Unearthed Arcana (for 1st ed. AD&D), the Players Option books (for 2nd ed. AD&D), and so on. If you like having more options, you should use a retro-clone that incorporates all or most of Greyhawk.

3. Holmes ed. D&D is a perfectly good game. There is a fan-made expansion for it out there, but, as written, it was meant to transfer to AD&D at 4th level.

4. They vary a lot, which is kind of the point. There's 32 flavors of retro-clone out there, each "tasting" a little different (or a lot different) from the others. They are all easy to learn -- that's why we build off a system that was so easy to learn and play. But you owe it to yourself to sample them all (with a good skim, if not a playtest) and pick the one that you like best.

[Deleted]

The DCC RPG and "Lamentations of the Flame Princess" might be easy and affordable introductory readings for you, especially if you are coming from a modern RPG background.

I personally think oldschool gaming is more about a certain flair to the scenario, than about a certain flair to the rules, though, and usually advocate in these discussions that you spend some money on a few older fantasy books, rather than on pretty highly prized collectors' items. - If you like the stories you find in story anthologies like "Swords Against Darkness", and think you need a (usually more basic) ruleset to emulate them well, THEN invest in some vintage material.

[dizzysaxophone]

It does depend on the flavor of OD&D you want. Just the 3 original books, or +Greyhawk, or +Supplements?

If you go Swords & Wizardry White box matches the original books, Core is + Greyhawk, Complete is +all supplements & Strategic Review Classes. Another thing you may enjoy about S&W verse many of the other retro-clones is it has the option for Ascending Armor Class.

I think the closest clone you will get to the 3 lbbs is Delving Deeper. You can find the hypertext version here: ddo.immersiveink.com/dd.html

It also retrofits the Greyhawk thief into lbb style OD&D. Delving Deeper also has a compendium available in print, and if you prefer .pdfs you can get them on their forum for free.

[Red Baron]

Hi darien,

The three levels offered by Holmes Basic are far, far more than enough to offer endless hours of gaming. A lot of people here spent years just getting through that section of the game, and still prefer it to higher level play. Holmes offers dragons and magic staffs to 1st level characters, so don't feel that you are missing out on "high level content", because its all packed in there.

If you are looking to use the 3LBBs, you can find free pdfs online pretty easily or purchase them at a low cost, then assemble your own booklets! I followed a guide I found on this board and did just that, so now I don't have to risk damaging the old booklets during play.

Some people prefer to use supplements I-IV, but they are unnecessary, and are best used to cherry pick ideas from.

You have a very very wide selection of retro-clones to choose from. Two (written by mods on this board) are Swords & Wizardry White Box and Delving
Deeper. Both are excellent! S&W white box is probably the easist clone to get into, and you can find the PDF here! link

[aldarron]

Okay, I feel like you are getting advice from all over the place. I'll put in my 2 cents but try to give you some of the context to help make more sense.

Dec 8, 2015 6:56:36 GMT -6 darien said:

Alright, I am a newbie to OD&D and a lot of the old-school retro-clones in general and I am wondering where should I begin and what books should I look at first. What books contain which materials and which OSR retro-clones correspond to which editions of D&D?

The very first place you should start is this very forum. ODD74 is chock full of info - pick some interesting threads and read.

I have my own "clone" Champions of ZED (Zero Edition Dungeoneering) which I don't recommend you go to as a place to start. It is intended for the more seasoned folks and you will likely find all the CHAINMAIL (a pre D&D miniature warfare ruleset by Gary Gygax) to be a bit daunting. Instead I highly reccomend the latests version of Delving Deeper - it is far more accurate and true to the spirit of OD&D than any of its competitors (within copyright restrictions). Most of the "clones" are really just "classic" D&D reskinned. Not that there is anything wrong with Classic - it all depends on what you are looking for.

Be aware of these terms in particular "3lbbs" (three little brown books) and "+ supplements" The first publication of the game was in 1974 in the form of 3 booklets packaged in a woodgrain box. These have gone through multiple printings and a few minor changes. However, beginning in 1975, TSR published supplements that included a lot of new rules and new stuff. Most OD&D'ers like to cherry pick these supplements.

You don't absolutely need any of the supplements or CHAINMAIL to play the game. They are helpful, especially CM, but if you are starting with a good clone you really don't need them because the important bits will be included.

Dec 8, 2015 6:56:36 GMT -6 darien said:

I'm also interested in Holmes Basic D&D but I hear that only goes up to Level 3 (unless there are expansions, I am unsure if there are). I started with D&D 3.5e and then largely moved onto White Wolf (both Old and New World of Darkness) and Big Eyes Small Mouth, but I really want to get into old-school roleplaying and see how things were in the beginning.

There's lots. Meepo's or Delve's are what I would recommend. Have a look at this thread link

[joseph]

Dec 8, 2015 9:35:34 GMT -6 dizzysaxophone said:

I think the closest clone you will get to the 3 lbbs is Delving Deeper. You can find the hypertext version here: ddo.immersiveink.com/dd.html

It also retrofits the Greyhawk thief into lbb style OD&D. Delving Deeper also has a compendium available in print, and if you prefer .pdfs you can get them on their forum for free.

Seconded, but it depends on what you are looking for. If you want the "original experience" so to speak, Delving Deeper has the unique position of cloning the 3LBBS and Chainmail (with some spells and a new (really nice) thief class being the only straight additions, I believe). Compare this to Swords & Wizardry which adds various supplemental material to the 3LBBs - the amount varying between White Box, Core, and Complete. All four of these are very good games, so really there's no wrong choice.

Two pieces of advice: First, haunt these forums, there is a ton of interesting info here. And second, don't pigeon-hole yourself into one version or clone - most of them can be had for free or next to it, so why not check out all of them.

Here's DD:
www.immersiveink.com/?page_id=20

[darien]

Thanks for the info guys, I will check out this forum more and look into Swords and Wizardry first and then Delving Deeper next.

[joseph]

Dec 8, 2015 9:46:44 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

If you are looking to use the 3LBBs, you can find free pdfs online pretty easily or purchase them at a low cost

Is this true, or are you referring to illegal downloads? No offense, of course, since you own the originals it's legal for you to have a digital copy.
They may be available on DTRPG, but I don't know for sure.

Another option would be to pick up the WotC "premium edition" release.

[darien]

After looking through the Delving Deeper sub-board a little bit, I may be interested in that one, but I am unsure of how exactly familiar you need to be with Chainmail, as I have never played Chainmail (or any other miniatures wargame for that matter). I would love to try either Delving Deeper or White Box Swords & Wizardry to start out with, but I wonder which one is more newbie friendly.

[joseph]

I'd suggest reading through both. My experience is that games play similarly but feel different. I have never read Chainmail (actually shopping around for it lately) and do not have any trouble understanding DD. S&W has a more modern presentation, while DD is presented a little more like the original, which might make S&W more friendly.

Another 0e game that we've failed to mention is Seven Voyages of Zylarthen, which I think is free on Lulu...? I read it and liked it, but haven't played it and don't remember how it differed. I think it was 3LBBs plus Greyhawk.

[darien]

I will check out both and see which one I want to run or play first. I had also considered studying both games and possibly using those as reference in creating an OSR retro-clone of my own inspired and influenced by anime and manga.

[kesher]

Welcome, darien!

IMO, S&W Whitebox is the most neophyte-friendly product out there. It assumes no previous old school knowledge, and has really helpful sidebars explaining optional rules and offering historical perspective. It pairs well with this document:

The Role-Playing Game Primer and Old School Playbook

Don't get me wrong--I think DD is awesome; however, for my money, the combo above is the clearest, quickest way to actually get you PLAYING.

[makofan]

IMO, Swords & Wizardry is dead simple and fun. Anybody can get started with minimal knowledge, and have a lot of fun. There are a host of add-ons for it, and you can devise new classes easily

Delving Deeper is (IMO) an intelligent restating of the 3 LBB plus Chainmail, all integrated well, and is probably the closest to how I would run OD&D. It is more complicated than S&W.

I now prefer DD, but I think S&W is a better place to start for newbies.

[Finarvyn]

It's also nice to note that many of the clones are free downloads. (S&W, S&W WB, Delving Deeper, etc.) If you don't want to spend big bucks on a set of LBB, many of the clones will provide the right philosophy with cleaned up (improved?) writing and game mechanics without the financial expenditure.

[Zulgyan]

Philotomy's musings were my introduction to OD&D. I heartly recommend them as a starting point.

www.grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf

[Red Baron]

Dec 8, 2015 10:50:20 GMT -6 joseph said:

Dec 8, 2015 9:46:44 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

If you are looking to use the 3LBBs, you can find free pdfs online pretty easily or purchase them at a low cost

Is this true, or are you referring to illegal downloads? No offense, of course, since you own the originals it's legal for you to have a digital copy.
They may be available on DTRPG, but I don't know for sure.

Another option would be to pick up the WotC "premium edition" release.

My DM bought pdfs of all his books from WotC. They are watermarked PDFs, so I know for sure that's where he got them from.

I'm puzzled though, since a google search doesn't pull up anything. They might have gone off the market   or he may have just known someone in the industry - he's a real ol' timer.

I have also seen several scanned copies of people's books floating around.

[strangebrew]

Dec 8, 2015 18:33:54 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

I'm puzzled though, since a google search doesn't pull up anything. They might have gone off the market   or he may have just known someone in the industry - he's a real ol' timer.

I'm guessing he bought the pdfs from the initial pdf-selling venture by WOTC before they shut it all down due to piracy concerns. There are clean, fan-made pdfs of the LBBs floating out there, as well as a few single-document pdfs combining the three books, or at least there were. I used to know where they were, but no longer, and even if I did we shouldn't discuss such things.

As to the OP - I'd recommend Delving Deeper the most, but S&W would be fine as well. At least download DD for the dungeon and wilderness information, as it has a lot of the charm and quirk of the original books. S&W didn't have much of this kind of information, or at least not the last version I read. You could easily combine the two.

I don't particularly like the supplements myself, maybe best to start without then judge for yourself. Like how Philotomy (I think) once mentioned, start with the basics as is, then flavor to taste (see Zulgyan's link above).

I'd also recommend picking up the Holmes book sometime if you can, just because it's a fun read and it has a nice little intro adventure and a bunch of monsters. There's a lot of fun old stuff that you can pick up relatively affordably, such as the Best of Dragon 1, the Dungeoneer Compendium (issues 1-6), the TSR monochrome modules. Enough options to make light/amateur collecting affordable and fun. One nice thing about OD&D is that taking bits and pieces from multiple sources and mixing them how you like was exactly how you were expected to do it.

Do a Google search for "OD&D Setting", "basic_1977.pdf", and "Under Xylarthen's Tower" for three free gems.

Welcome onboard.

[Red Baron]

The OD&D Setting

[darien]

Alright, I think I will download both Swords & Wizardry and Delving Deeper, read both, and compare the two before I decide on which one I will start with (I'm leaning towards Swords & Wizardry since it seems more newbie-friendly, but I do want to try Delving Deeper as well).

[riftstone]

Dec 8, 2015 12:57:17 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

Philotomy's musings were my introduction to OD&D. I heartly recommend them as a starting point.

www.grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf

Dec 9, 2015 10:48:46 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

The OD&D Setting

Can't recommend these enough. Rules are only part of the picture.

[darien]

I will check all of them out. In addition to S&W and Delving Deeper, I've also thought about getting Microlite 74 as well.

[tetramorph]

Microlite 74 is really nice.

But it just doesn't feel like D&D to me without the 6 ability scores.

And it doesn't feel like 0e to me without the right order! (S, I, W, C, D, C).

[joseph]

Here's a great post comparing DD to S&W.
odd74.proboards.com/thread/8657

[Deleted]

My reservation about S&W and some of the other retroclones named is that they are written for people already in the know - and often fall short to sell their general ideas to the players.

It's my general observation that almost all more sophisticated DMs I know sooner or later switch to easier, older systems. But for players, what exactly is the selling point? Maps, art, and general support are usually not very individuall exciting, and cheaper than what the market leaders can offer. - And while most players come to enjoy oldschool gaming over time, that initial appeal has become the reason I personally tend to favor "successor games" like the DCC RPG over pure clones at my gaming table.

Not a statement, but I would be pretty interested in your opinions on the matter.

Other than that, I second Zulgyan 's recommendation. Apart from the basic game, Philotomy's musings are something not to miss. Also, the file Red Baron linked to.

[darien]

I just read the OD&D setting PDF that Red Baron posted and I love it. The info is very useful for a potential OD&D/OSR DM to use.

Also, I have just discovered that Swords & Wizardry has a System Reference Document. This could be useful to me.

[rsdean]

Dec 8, 2015 10:16:01 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Be aware of these terms in particular "3lbbs" (three little brown books) and "+ supplements" The first publication of the game was in 1974 in the form of 3 booklets packaged in a woodgrain box. These have gone through multiple printings and a few minor changes. However, beginning in 1975, TSR published supplements that included a lot of new rules and new stuff. Most OD&D'ers like to cherry pick these supplements.

You don't absolutely need any of the supplements or CHAINMAIL to play the game. They are helpful, especially CM, but if you are starting with a good clone you really don't need them because the important bits will be included.

If somebody has a link to the FAQ from the Strategic Review, it might be helpful for reference in the event the OP finds a set of the reprints...

As far as the supplements go, in my experience BITD, use of Greyhawk seemed pretty universal, but I didn't find much evidence that people were using much of mechanics from Blackmoor (hit locations?) or Eldritch Wizardry. New classes and monsters were more widespread. Looking back on it later, leaving Greyhawk out could be a more interesting game, but emulates a comparitively rare 1970s play style. IMHO, of course...

[idrahil]

Dec 11, 2015 15:10:55 GMT -6 darien said:

I just read the OD&D setting PDF that Red Baron posted and I love it. The info is very useful for a potential OD&D/OSR DM to use.

Also, I have just discovered that Swords & Wizardry has a System Reference Document. This could be useful to me.

That OD&D Setting PDF is indeed a great resource.

[joseph]

Dec 11, 2015 15:10:55 GMT -6 darien said:

Also, I have just discovered that Swords & Wizardry has a System Reference Document. This could be useful to me.

I had laugh at this, because probably everyone who posted here knew about it, but no one mentioned it. The old school mindset? #oldguys

Delving Deeper has an online hypertext as well.