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Post by Stormcrow on Nov 16, 2015 10:59:16 GMT -6
I've attempted to formalize the steps taking in stocking a dungeon, according to The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures. I've put the sequence here. Anyone have any comments? One thing I've noticed is how it differs ever so slightly from all the sequences that came after it: it starts with important treasures ("prizes") rather than monsters. Later sequences always seem to give treasure as an afterthought. |
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Post by aldarron on Nov 18, 2015 13:00:34 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing Stormcrow. I like that you separated things into three colors. I'll keep my comments to the "black" stuff.
You wrote "This procedure was designed to help the referee fill a dungeon, not to replace the referee. Fill as much as you like the way you like; use this procedure to do the bits you don't want to invent yourself."
and
"Devise several important and valuable treasures to be hidden on the dungeon level..."
To my mind the way you have put this adds a spin on U&WA that isn't in the original. What is actually says is "The determination of just where monsters should be placed, and whether or not they will be guarding
treasure, and how much of the latter if they are guarding something, can become burdensome when faced with several levels to do at one time. It is a good idea to thoughtfully place several of the most important treasures, " p6.
I think that pretty clearly is saying that the normal random stocking procedure "can become burdensome" (it takes bloody forever in my experience) so to reduce the massive number of dice rolls the normal procedure involves, it is a "good idea" to reduce your workload with some "thoughtfully placed" stocking. What I'm saying is that you've taken a suggestion and made it into a primary rule.
My other quibble regards "All treasure in the dungeon is guarded by monsters, traps, or tricks. For each treasure placed so far, add a suitable monster, trap, or trick (including simply being hidden)."
Your use of "guarded" here is a bit confusing since you are also covering what is called "unguarded treasure" in U&WA. I wouldn't normally consider a treasure with no monster that is hidden under a rug to be "guarded" by the rug, for example.
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Post by Stormcrow on Nov 18, 2015 13:23:59 GMT -6
To my mind the way you have put this adds a spin on U&WA that isn't in the original. What is actually says is "The determination of just where monsters should be placed, and whether or not they will be guarding treasure, and how much of the latter if they are guarding something, can become burdensome when faced with several levels to do at one time. It is a good idea to thoughtfully place several of the most important treasures, " p6. I think that pretty clearly is saying that the normal random stocking procedure "can become burdensome" (it takes bloody forever in my experience) so to reduce the massive number of dice rolls the normal procedure involves, it is a "good idea" to reduce your workload with some "thoughtfully placed" stocking. What I'm saying is that you've taken a suggestion and made it into a primary rule. I think you've got it exactly backwards. It's saying that deciding on where monsters go, what sort they are, whether they're guarding treasure, and how much they've got, is tough when you're faced with the prospect of doing several levels of it. The whole random-stocking section is just a suggestion: random stocking is easier than having to make every decision yourself. This is why I included the note. You can put anything you want in the dungeon. Obviously. But if you're pressed for time or inspiration, here's a handy random-generation system for you! That's what it's saying. I really can't accept that it was supposed to be the other way round. Only place stuff thoughtfully if randomness is taking too long? No. I'll change the wording so that only monsters "guard," while traps and tricks "hide" or "protect." |
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Post by cadriel on Nov 18, 2015 13:45:28 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing Stormcrow. I like that you separated things into three colors. I'll keep my comments to the "black" stuff. You wrote "This procedure was designed to help the referee fill a dungeon, not to replace the referee. Fill as much as you like the way you like; use this procedure to do the bits you don't want to invent yourself." and "Devise several important and valuable treasures to be hidden on the dungeon level..." To my mind the way you have put this adds a spin on U&WA that isn't in the original. What is actually says is "The determination of just where monsters should be placed, and whether or not they will be guarding treasure, and how much of the latter if they are guarding something, can become burdensome when faced with several levels to do at one time. It is a good idea to thoughtfully place several of the most important treasures, " p6. I think that pretty clearly is saying that the normal random stocking procedure "can become burdensome" (it takes bloody forever in my experience) so to reduce the massive number of dice rolls the normal procedure involves, it is a "good idea" to reduce your workload with some "thoughtfully placed" stocking. What I'm saying is that you've taken a suggestion and made it into a primary rule. My other quibble regards "All treasure in the dungeon is guarded by monsters, traps, or tricks. For each treasure placed so far, add a suitable monster, trap, or trick (including simply being hidden)." Your use of "guarded" here is a bit confusing since you are also covering what is called "unguarded treasure" in U&WA. I wouldn't normally consider a treasure with no monster that is hidden under a rug to be "guarded" by the rug, for example. On treasure determination, you're reading U&WA virtually upside-down. The sentence immediately after "The determination of just where ..." is: "It is a good idea to thoughtfully place several of the most important treasures, with or without monsterous guardians, and then switch to a random determination for the balance of the level." This is exactly the opposite of what you are saying: thoughtful placement of monsters and treasure is too time-consuming, and should be done procedurally with dice rolls. The actual random stocking of dungeon levels is relatively rapid, in my experience. Random stocking is for rooms not already allocated, and the process documentation should indicate this. It does mean that the proportions of rooms are not entirely meant to follow the logic laid out (1/6 with monster and treasure, 1/6 with monster and no treasure, 1/9 with treasure and no monster, the remainder empty) but it should still be inclined that way. U&WA has a clearer definition of what to do with unguarded treasure: "Unguarded Treasures should be invisible, hidden behind a secret door or under the floor, locked in hard-to-open strong boxes with poison needles or deadly gas released when they are opened. (There are many variants of the above possible, and many other types of protection which can be devised.)" So I do agree that the verbiage in point 2 is off. Treasure is either guarded, hidden or trapped. |
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Post by Stormcrow on Nov 18, 2015 14:06:04 GMT -6
Treasure is either guarded, hidden or trapped. Good way to put it. I've updated the wording. |
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Post by aldarron on Nov 21, 2015 6:53:51 GMT -6
"It is a good idea to thoughtfully place several of the most important treasures, with or without monsterous guardians, and then switch to a random determination for the balance of the level." This is exactly the opposite of what you are saying: thoughtful placement of monsters and treasure is too time-consuming, and should be done procedurally with dice rolls. The actual random stocking of dungeon levels is relatively rapid, in my experience. Gentleman we not going to even remotely agree on this. I'll simply say I find it baffling that anyone who has used the procedures to stock a multilevel dungeon would consider making stuff up to be more burdensome and time consuming than diceing for it. I can stock a dozen rooms off the top of my head in a matter of seconds, and I've no doubt you can too. It takes multiples of rolls and multiple chart look-ups just to do one room using the book methods. First there's a d6 roll to see if is inhabited. Second a d6 roll to find the monster level Third the monster must be picked, and Fourth there is a 50/50 roll for treasure Then begin the treasure rolls, at a bare minimum, this will be and additional 5 rolls on the treasure table - and that is if there is nothing present except silver. If you get any Gems, Jewelry, or Magic items you are talking about dozens and dozens of rolls and chart flips, and the more levels you add to the dungeon, the chances of getting this stuff each time go up. No exaggeration. It is indded a very "burdensome" process. If it helps at all, I can point out that the only multilevel OD&D dungeon we have from the time period by one of the game's authors - the first 6 levels of Blackmoor dungeon - was stocked entirely using the 3lbb random tables. The only "thoughtfully placed" monster is Sir Fang, placed as a wandering monster on level 1. |
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Post by scottyg on Nov 22, 2015 15:16:43 GMT -6
If the dozen rooms you're stocking in seconds off the top of your head are indistinguishable from the random rolls, you're missing the point. What's trying to be conveyed is that the ref should spend time on the Pièce de résistance items in the dungeon, the special encounters, items, villains, etc. that will be the most memorable. Whether the rest is random, designed, or made up on the fly doesn't matter.
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Post by aldarron on Nov 23, 2015 7:29:20 GMT -6
If the dozen rooms you're stocking in seconds off the top of your head are indistinguishable from the random rolls, you're missing the point... Keeping in mind that we are talking about dungeons in 1974, and not the high adventure type stuff that came later, I don't disagree that Gygax is advising the referee to build in some "specials". My point is that these "more important treasures" are an exception and a "good idea" option. There is a difference between a recommendation and a requirement. What's trying to be conveyed is that the ref should spend time on the Pièce de résistance items in the dungeon, the special encounters, items, villains, etc. that will be the most memorable. Whether the rest is random, designed, or made up on the fly doesn't matter. That's not a fair description of the intention of the tables in U&WA. The dice choose the basic treasure and the "level" of the monster. Treasure can be adjusted and we are given "Other monsters to consider, depending upon the level and the surroundings". It is still very much the purview of the referee to choose the exact monster of the predetermined level if they wish, determine the whys and wherefores, and add any specials or color desired. Use of the tables is not a hindrance to creative design. |
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Post by Stormcrow on Nov 23, 2015 9:18:26 GMT -6
my point is that these "more important treasures" are an exception and a "good idea" option. There is a difference between a recommendation and a requirement. The more important treasures aren't the option; supplementing the more important treasures and monsters with random rolls is the option. It is recommended that you place the important stuff and then use random determination for the rest, rather than place everything, because trying to be creative over a whole bunch of levels all at once is daunting. But if you really want to place everything, just skip the random rolls. There is never an expectation that everything defaults to randomness. The rules first tell you what designing a dungeon is like, and it talks about the referee putting this here and putting that there. Then it says that doing all that for a whole bunch of levels is daunting, so here's a bit of randomness to take out some of the decision-making. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Dec 1, 2015 5:05:20 GMT -6
I've attempted to formalize the steps taking in stocking a dungeon, according to The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures. I've put the sequence here. Anyone have any comments? It's a nice effort Stormcrow; thanks for putting it up. FWIW, I have some comments: You might consider quoting U&WA verbatim for the whole of the black text to minimise risk of inadvertently introducing bias. E.g., U&WA p6 has this: "Thoughtfully place several of the most important treasures." (it doesn't say "valuable"), and this: "the more important treasures will consist of various magical items and large amounts of wealth in the form of gems and jewelry." (it doesn't say "main prizes to be collected by the adventurers"), and this: "secreted in out-of-the-way locations" (it doesn't explicitly say "hard-to-reach, or hard-to-find rooms or spaces"; those comments at the top of p8 are regarding unguarded treasure). You might consider using "shallowest" to simplify "the highest (least dangerous)" dungeon level? Regarding step 3 "Place random monsters.": The method described is workable, but it doesn't ring true for me. I had to think about why not for a while before I realised: the method described for randomly determining monsters requires the designer to "assign monster numbers", "choose any number, keeping in mind the dungeon and monster levels", and to "Choose the servants' numbers as needed". This is what I'd expect to do when thoughtfully placing monsters, sure, but exactly what I wouldn't expect to do when randomly placing monsters. All that is to say: seems to me there might be a crossed-wire in there somewhere... Fun stuff to think about  |
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Post by Stormcrow on Dec 1, 2015 12:56:37 GMT -6
You might consider quoting U&WA verbatim for the whole of the black text to minimise risk of inadvertently introducing bias. I'm not trying to avoid bias; I'm presenting an interpretation as efficiently as possible. Quoting verbatim, you may as well just say, "Read the book." Valuable can mean more than just gold-piece value. When the referee places treasures with magic items, gems, and jewelry, and randomly generates other treasures using the table, the placed treasures are the main prizes and the others are pittances. Mine is more explicitly what is obviously intended. Secreted means it's hidden. Out-of-the-way means it's not on the beaten track; i.e., it's hard to get to. You might consider using "shallowest" to simplify "the highest (least dangerous)" dungeon level? Yuck. Nobody says that. Dungeon levels being inverted, they've always been a source of confused terminology. The book gives no further guidance on these steps. If there's a magic formula, it's not given. Since it does say that monster numbers are to be chosen by dungeon and monster level, I can only assume they are chosen by the referee's judgement, not a random roll. |
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Post by tetramorph on Dec 1, 2015 17:49:25 GMT -6
In reflecting on this, I think that, given the shape and reward structure of the game at a mechanical level, it makes more sense to me to stock all treasure first, and then find out where the monsters are.
That leads my mind to a different kind of inspiration and a different way of imagining the theme of a level.
Putting treasure first (not only for the "most important," but in general) leads to treasure-centric themes!
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Post by waysoftheearth on Dec 1, 2015 19:16:43 GMT -6
I'm not trying to avoid bias; I'm presenting an interpretation as efficiently as possible. Quoting verbatim, you may as well just say, "Read the book." Presenting an interpretation of the text is fine, sure. Presenting the relevant phrases in U&WA, verbatim, but as a more structured sequence of events would also, I think, be valuable. Perhaps that's something I can do, time allowing, and then we can compare notes... Valuable can mean more than just gold-piece value. I think this is precisely the point. U&WA mentions only "important" treasures, acknowledging that a treasure can be important without being valuable. E.g., the Holy Grail might be a wooden cup worth 2 cp, but it's still an important treasure. You've introduced the term "valuable", and now suggest that "valuable" is synonymous with "important". That's fine. All I meant was that "valuable" carries the additional (and IMHO undesired) implication of gp value, particularly when used in addition to "important". When the referee places treasures with magic items, gems, and jewelry, and randomly generates other treasures using the table, the placed treasures are the main prizes and the others are pittances. That's your interpretation, and that's fine. However, the method described in U&WA facilitates a ref placing "important" treasures that may be of trivial or no gp value, in which case a randomly stocked treasures could easily be of greater gp value. Randomly generated treasure can be have significant gp value; it need not be a pittance. Mine is more explicitly what is obviously intended. It would, I think, be constructive if you could try to qualify statements like these. Since it does say that monster numbers are to be chosen by dungeon and monster level, I can only assume they are chosen by the referee's judgement, not a random roll. I don't agree. U&WA states: "The number of monsters is best determined by the level being considered and the kind of monster in inhabiting the room or space." immediately after stating: "The monster(s) can be selected by use of the Monster Determination & Level of Monster Matrix...". I don't believe this suggests anything is "chosen" by the referee during random determination. |
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Post by Stormcrow on Dec 1, 2015 20:40:37 GMT -6
I think you're reading more meaning into Gygax's words than were intended. For instance, when he says determined, that doesn't necessarily mean generated. It just means "come up with a number."
As far as random treasures being a relative pittance, they are. Compared with magic items, gems, and jewelry placed with 100% success by the referee, treasures with some hundreds or even, on lower levels, thousands of gold pieces and maybe some of the good stuff aren't worth as much. And if the Holy Grail has a market value of only two coppers, presumably it has other properties that make it desirable to retrieve; these, I put forward, would undoubtedly be of more value than the mere random treasure of the level.
Which treasure would you rather find, if you were in a fresh, first-level party on the first level of the dungeon? A random treasure with the maximum of 60 gold pieces and 600 silver pieces, or a treasure placed by the referee containing a dagger +1 and a gem worth 100 gold pieces?
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Post by waysoftheearth on Dec 2, 2015 6:04:47 GMT -6
I think you're reading more meaning into Gygax's words than were intended. For instance, when he says determined, that doesn't necessarily mean generated. It just means "come up with a number." I may be reading U&WA too literally, but the observation stands: your method proposes referee choice for what U&WA describes as "random determination". You did ask for comments, so that's one comment. <shrug>. As far as random treasures being a relative pittance, they are. ... Which treasure would you rather find, if you were in a fresh, first-level party on the first level of the dungeon? A random treasure with the maximum of 60 gold pieces and 600 silver pieces, or a treasure placed by the referee containing a dagger +1 and a gem worth 100 gold pieces? That's a mis-representation of the value of a random treasure. On the 1st dungeon level a random treasure can contain up to 600 sp, 60 pg, 6 gems ( worth an average of 417 gp each, that's 2,502 gp), 6 pieces of jewelry ( worth an average of 3,410 gp each, that's 20,460 gp), and a magic item (which could be a Staff of Wizardry. Don't laugh; it is documented in a PBP on these boards that my 1st--perhaps 2nd?--level Elf actually pulled a Staff of Wizardry on a treasure roll). Gems, Jewelry, and magic items occur only 5% of the time, so an average 1st dungeon level random treasure is actually worth: 350 sp, 35 gp, gems worth (0.05 x 2502 =) 125 gp, jewelry worth (0.05 x 20,460 =) 1,023 gp, so a TOTAL of 1,218 gp plus a 5% shot at a magic item. So perhaps the more relevant question would be: Which treasure would a fresh, first-level party on the first level of the dungeon prefer to find? "a treasure placed by the referee containing a dagger +1 and a gem worth 100 gold pieces?" OR The AVERAGE 1st dungeon level random treasure worth 1,218 gp + a 5% shot at a magic item? I don't want to argue with you over the minute details; it is what it is. |
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Post by makofan on Dec 2, 2015 15:22:46 GMT -6
I agree with ways on this one. For example, her are 10 random rolls on the treasure table level 1. That is probably more interesting than what I would have thought up. A Helm of Chaos? What's the story there...
500 s.p., Scroll of Protection from Magic
600 s.p.,
400 s.p.,
300 s.p., 30 g.p.,
300 s.p.,
600 s.p.,
600 s.p., 60 g.p.,
300 s.p., 60 g.p.,
100 s.p., 50 g.p.,
600 s.p., 20 g.p., Helm of Chaos
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on Dec 2, 2015 16:53:26 GMT -6
A Helm of Chaos? What's the story there... I just want to add a little bit to this. One of my favorite random treasure rolls was a magic, intelligent Sword +1, +2 vs Lycanthropes that also had the minor power of Detecting Silver. "Turns out", the Sword had been originally tasked with finding more silver so that more weapons could be made in a war vs werewolves. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Dec 4, 2015 22:41:15 GMT -6
Okay, so here's an alternative proposal (with anything not directly from U&WA in blue): | A | "It is a good idea to thoughtfully place several of the most important treasures, with or without monsterous guardians."
"the more important treasures will consist of various magical items and large amounts of wealth in the form of gems and jewelry" and should be "secreted in out-of-the-way locations". | | B | "switch to a random determination for the balance of the level."
Dice "for every room or space not already allocated": | | | 1-2 | "indicates that there is some monster there. The monster(s) can be selected by use of the Monster Determination & Level of Monster Matrix" (U&WA p10-11).
"The number of monsters is best determined by the level being considered and the kind of monster inhabiting the room or space." (U&WA p11)*
"The Monster Table from Volume II can be most helpful here." (to see if a monster is individual or group type, M&T p3-4) | | | | 1-3 | "indicates some form of treasure is present." (dungeon treasure, U&WA p7) | | | | 4-6 | (No treasure) | | | 3-6 | "a room or space which is unoccupied" | | | | 1 | "indicates some form of treasure is present." (dungeon treasure, U&WA p7)
"Unguarded Treasures should be invisible, hidden behind a secret door or under the floor, locked in hard-to-open strong boxes with poison needles or deadly gas released when they are opened. (There are many variants of the above possible, and many other types of protection which can be devised.)" | | | | 2-6 | (No treasure) | | C** | "there are a number of other easily added tricks and traps. The fear of "death", its risk each time, is one of the most stimulating parts of the game. It therefore behooves the campaign referee to include as many mystifying and dangerous areas as is consistant with a reasonable chance for survival". |
--- * This is the most significant point of difference to the OP. This interpretation presumes that the prior reference to the Monster Determination & Level of Monster Matrix rule--and use of the word " monster(s)"--implies that the reader can determine the type of monster and the number of monsters in the referenced section (U&WA p11). FWIW, this interpretation means that the given rule is reasonably complete. The alternative possibility--described in the OP--means that the given rule is incomplete and the referee must invent for what's missing (which is why the additional rulings around choosing numbers of monsters appear in the OP). ** U&WA section THE UNDERWORLD begins with a sample dungeon level which includes several tricks and traps, then details several additional types of tricks and traps "which can be included", before discussing of distribution of monsters and treasure. This implies that thoughtful placement of tricks and traps should occur prior to the distribution of monsters and treasure. However, Arneson advises (re: SETTING UP AN ADVENTURE) that: "Each group" of monsters "would have a lair in which that group's loot (if any) would be located. This lair should not be filled with tricks and traps since the beasts traveling in and out of the lair all the time would probably avoid the bother of setting and resetting such things." (AiF p22) And that: The players risk "finding a trick or trap at the end of a passage that dead ends (and thus one not used too often by the inhabitants) that would hurt members of the party." (AiF p22) Which implies that tricks and traps should be thoughtfully placed after the monster population is known. So it seems step C (thoughtful placement of tricks and traps) could legitimately occur either first, or--as I've shown above--last. Enjoy ~! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2015 13:46:52 GMT -6
Crom's hairy nutsack, is it really that difficult?
I draw a dungeon level. I sit there for a while going, "Oh, let's see, I'll put... this... here. Yeah. And it's treasure is this. And over here I'll put that."
Et cetera. I mean, I just sit down and put a bunch of monsters and treasure in the level as inspiration strikes me. I've been doing it that way for 42 years and people are still clamoring to explore my dungeon so I must be doing SOMETHING right.
It's not rocket surgery, people, it's a silly-@ss game about exploring a "Fun House from Hell." Honestly, I think people agonize too much and don't simply play the game enough.
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
Posts: 398
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Post by idrahil on Dec 5, 2015 14:01:57 GMT -6
I've been doing it that way for 42 years and people are still clamoring to explore my dungeon so I must be doing SOMETHING right. Well, I prefer to stock the dungeon myself for the most part as well. However, it is fun to occasionally see what random results produces. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2015 14:35:52 GMT -6
Sure it is. I wrote a FORTRAN program using the tables in Volume 3.
But this thread already encompasses more time and effort than Gary spent on that section. He wrote something that "looked about right," I suspect. Seeking unified system where one is not present is a nugatory exercise.
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Post by Stormcrow on Dec 5, 2015 14:39:19 GMT -6
Some of us get bored at work.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2015 15:29:19 GMT -6
Some of us get bored at work. Well, THAT makes total sense.  |
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Post by Scott Anderson on Dec 24, 2015 8:30:06 GMT -6
LOL "Prizes"
love it, gonna use it
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Post by Stormcrow on Dec 24, 2015 10:54:20 GMT -6
The term was commonly used pre-D&D.
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