Hit Dice: dice used for hitting

[Mike]

Apologies the droll title.

Here's a plan I'm working on, in a slow and steady sort of way, for combat.

My goal is to change the steps for determining a hit and, to a degree, determining damage.

Step 1: throw your hit dice (d6) a 5 - 6 results in one "hit" (I'm also experimenting with just a "6" hitting). Combatants with a "+" such as a level 1 Fighting-Man adds that value as a modifier. If you throw more than one die and have more than one "+", you decide which dice to modify.

Step 2: throw 2 dice and consult a chart indexing weapon type (1 - 12) versus armour class (9 - 2) to determine if the "hit" causes damage (penetrated defences).

Step 3: if the attack penetrates and causes damage the defender loses one hit die per hit sustained and is dead at zero hit dice. Optionally (but likely), lose 1 - 6 hit points too; this might result in a situation where you're out of hit dice (so can't fight) but are still staggering around with a handful of hit points remaining, barely able to hold on to your innards.

Early stages yet. No idea about heroes and superheroes or daring exploits such as parrying. A work in progress.

Suggestions greatly appreciated.

[Finarvyn]

I guess I'm a little puzzled by the inclusion of step #1 and what it's supposed to represent. (The whole system sounds sort of like Warhammer to me; my son plays it and I never quite could figure out all of the extra rolls there, either.)

The second step is the "did it cause damage" roll but what is the advantage of having this be its own thing instead of putting it together with #1 into a single roll? Seems like this would get old if you have a lot of combatants.

Or maybe I just haven't figured out its coolnes yet. Tell us more!

[mindcontrolsquid]

Questions:

-Does the decision to modify a die with a bonus in step one come before or after the results of the roll(s) are known?

-When you say "throw 2 dice" for Step 2, is that two six-sided dice? Is there a 12-sided die being rolled for weapon type and an 8-sided die rolled to determine armor class (as nonsensical as that sounds)?

-For that matter, what weapon types do you envision for this subsystem? Are they based on design, weapon speed, size, anything of that sort?

-Are hit dice still used to determine hit points, and if so is this accomplished in the way outlined in the regular rules or in some other fashion?

I do like the general idea of creating a system wherein combatants can be "disabled" without necessarily dying, although I fear it may be straying somewhat far from the elegance of the ACS. I'm curious as to what the goal of the creation of this system is; is it to create more tension and uncertainty in battle situations? To create more variance in the success or failure of attacks in a given combat situation?

It also occurs to me that this system would necessitate a revision of the ACS's Men/Monsters attacking charts, and I personally think that fighting-men should be given some sort of combat edge to reflect their faster advancement beyond simply having more hit dice than a magic-user or cleric (perhaps a "phantom hit die" applied only for attacking?). I'm also curious as to how you would handle bonuses to-hit, such as from a magic sword. The whole thing reminds me somewhat of the example combat from Strategic Review #2 wherein opposed hit dice rolls are made to determine whether a gang of orcs can non-lethally overbear a lone hero. Perhaps a similar method could be used here to determine hit penetration or something of that nature?

I hope any of that was helpful...

[kesher]

Two thoughts:

First, it looks like a pretty elegant synthesis of the first two combat systems from Chainmail. You could certainly speed up the roll-time by having a player roll both dice at once, maybe differentiated by color. I'd lean toward a 5-6 for a hit; a 6 is only, what, roughly 18%? Seems like a lot of whiffs in the offing.

Second, @finarvyn, I immediately thought of Warhammer, too! Roll to hit; if you hit, roll to wound; if you wound, the affected unit rolls to save. Seems like it could be condensed a bit...

[Mike]

Thanks folks, rolling the dice together could be the way to go. Yes, Warhammer ripped off Chainmail!

[Deleted]

While the procedure is fine, the probabilities look off. Trading D&D's system where one hit equals one hit die for a system where a hit only reduces hit points on a 5 or a 6 will make combat last longer. I'd suggest the initial roll be a hit on a 4 or better with regular weapons, 3 or better with two-handed weapons, and only 5 or better with any non-battlefield weapon like a dagger, club or claws.

[Fearghus]

***Ninja Edit. Completely missed the WH comment above. Coffee is starting to kick in. ***

Have you ever played warhammer 40k (might be the same for warhammer fantasy)? I played the 4th edition, maybe a little of third. It is a minis war game.



Minis have weapon skill (WS), strength (S), toughness (T) and wounds (W) (level, str, con, HP). All dice are d6. There is also init and all that. This will give some more details.



1. Compare attacker to defender WS on the chart. Equal numbers hit on 4+. That target number adjusts based on disparity. WS will be between 1 and 10.

2. If a hit, roll to wound. Attacker S vs defender T. Compare to chart for N+ to roll.

3. Wounded targets make an armor save. Some special weapons and monstrous creatures ignore armor. Some special items allow an invulnerable save 5+/6+, that can always be used (religious relics, etc).

4. Losing units make morale checks.

5. Winning units advance or consolidate.



I don't know the history of WH, but I would not be surprised if it spawned from CM.

[Porphyre]

Roll 2d6 against armor using Chainmail Man-to-man table.

If armor is breached ,
-Attacker rolls 1d6 pet Hit Dice (any + is attributed to one token dice, preferably colored).
-Defender rolls 1d6 per Hit Dice
Compare the results in decreasing order.
If the Attackers higher dice exceeds defende's higher dice, one Hit Dice is lost for any Attacker's dice that exceeds a Defender's dice.

Exampli gratia :

A Hero (4HD) armed with sword and Chainmail attacks a Troll (6HD+3)

The hero rolls 10 with 2d6 and hits (sword against Chainmail+shield (AC4) according to MtM table)
Hero rolls 6,4,2,2
Troll rolls 5(2+3),3,3,2,1,1
The troll loses 2 HD (6 beats 5, 4 beats 3, but 3 beats 2, 2 equals 2 and 1, 1 beats 0,0)

Troll then rolls 9 on 2d6 and hits (the referee deems that trolls attacks like "dagger" ("they use only their talons and fangs for weapons")
Troll rolls 5,5,4,4(1+3)2,1
Hero rolls 4,4,3,2 and incurs 4 hits (5>4,5>4,4>3,4>2). "He's dead, Jim !"

Had the Hero rolled 6,4,3,2, he would have "saved" againts damage (6 beating 4)

Edit :I'm aware that this still boils down to "Step one : roll to hit against armor, step 2 : roll to determine damage" that maybe you precisely wanted to avoid, but the system makes the "hit Dice" count more and allows some kind of "save againts damage". 

[talysman]

I have been considering something similar to Step 1 off and on for a while. Attacker rolls hit dice, any roll of 5+ counts as 1 hit against AC 5. Target number changes for other armor classes:

- No Armor: 3+
- Light/Leather: 4+
- Heavy/Plate: 6+

Every hit kills one 1 hit die mook. Anything else takes damage as per the normal rules.

The things I haven't decide are whether non-fighters should be able to fight multiple weak opponents (1 per hit die) and whether to switch to a single attack roll for enemies with special attacks/defenses. I go back and forth on both issues.