Orc Leaders

[mindcontrolsquid]

Something that occurred to me today about orcs as presented in the LBBs: orc lairs are stated to be led by "strong leader/protector types," which could include high-level fighting-men or magic-users; the same goes for orc wagon trains.  I had always assumed that such individuals were human, but is it possible that they could be orcs? Either way is equally plausible in my opinion if one accounts for orcs advancing like humans in terms of class, which admittedly is not explicitly supported elsewhere in the rules but could easily be implemented. I ask partially because it seems strange to me that orcs are (in the rules as written) apparently not capable of governing or leading themselves, having an apparent propensity to be dominated by powerful non-orc creatures (such as the aforementioned fighting-men/magic-users or dragons, ogres, etc.). What do you guys think?

In a similar fashion, can one assume that such creatures might be sympathetic towards orc-kind, thus fulfilling the "protector" suggestion of their function? This scenario is more difficult for me to conceptualize; somehow I don't see a dragon being capable of taking pity on a tribe of orcs and defending them from threats, barring perhaps some mutually beneficial relationship between the dragon and orcs (or, more likely, the domination of the orcs by the dragon).

[derv]

I've always associated the orc description in M&T to reflect a similar concept to early native americans. It's not that they cannot govern themselves. It's that they are not focused on empire building (there were exceptions- aztecs for instance). There is inter tribal rivalry over the land and it's resources between groups immersed in a warrior culture. Where it talks of leaders being high level fighters or magic users, think "chief" or "shaman".

[mindcontrolsquid]

Oct 15, 2015 19:17:39 GMT -6 derv said:

Where it talks of leaders being high level fighters or magic users, think "chief" or "shaman".

I see...so you would characterize the fighters or magic-users as orcs, then. I do like the allegory you've presented; it does make orcs seem more concerned with their own inter-tribal politics than with raiding or attacking human lands, except when gathered under a powerful enough leader. That could lead to some interesting world-building elements revolving around orcs being displaced by human populations and turning to more powerful "leaders" in order to help them defend their lands from settlers. Kind of a spin on the Law/Chaos conflict, albeit one that might not mesh very well with how orcs are presented in OD&D...

[derv]

Oct 15, 2015 19:24:20 GMT -6 mindcontrolsquid said:

That could lead to some interesting world-building elements revolving around orcs being displaced by human populations and turning to more powerful "leaders" in order to help them defend their lands from settlers. Kind of a spin on the Law/Chaos conflict, albeit one that might not mesh very well with how orcs are presented in OD&D...

Consider a little earlier history- French Indian Wars for instance.

The orcs will not be looking for someone powerful to defend them, they will be employed as mercenaries and scouts to a powerful persons or nations cause. The orcs will join only if it benefits them.

[mindcontrolsquid]

I don't know why I didn't think of that, especially given that wages for orc mercenaries are so low in U&WA.

[Deleted]

In Greyhawk the high level orc leaders were orcs. In your world they are whatever you want them to be.

[aldarron]

Oct 15, 2015 18:19:18 GMT -6 mindcontrolsquid said:

Something that occurred to me today about orcs as presented in the LBBs: orc lairs are stated to be led by "strong leader/protector types," which could include high-level fighting-men or magic-users; the same goes for orc wagon trains.  I had always assumed that such individuals were human, but is it possible that they could be orcs? Either way is equally plausible in my opinion if one accounts for orcs advancing like humans in terms of class, which admittedly is not explicitly supported elsewhere in the rules but could easily be implemented. I ask partially because it seems strange to me that orcs are (in the rules as written) apparently not capable of governing or leading themselves, having an apparent propensity to be dominated by powerful non-orc creatures (such as the aforementioned fighting-men/magic-users or dragons, ogres, etc.). What do you guys think?.....

Bravo. You've stumbled onto a secret.

So, here is the little known story of the D&D orc. When Arneson began Blackmoor, one of the first "threats" in the wilderness were the Picts (like in Conan). While these fellows never completely disappeared, some of their characteristics (palisaded villages, wagon trains) seem to have been transfered to the "isengarder" tribe of "Orcs" ( other tribes are white hand, red eye, Mordor etc.) You can see Arneson's original orc write up for Isengarder Orcs in the FFC, (p62 of the 1980 reprint). Most of that made it into the 3lbbs.

It is also the case that Arneson used levels for monster leaders, and special types - Hero warhoses for example, but more to the point, both NPC leader Orcs, and Player Character Orcs were given levels. You can see an example of that in Garbage Pits of Despair, Part II (page m4) where there is a party of orcs "from the Orc Stronghold", led by a "full strength" orc "treat as a level 2 fighter"

[mindcontrolsquid]

aldarron: I never knew that! Very interesting stuff. I imagine other Chaotic humanoids could follow similar principles; could be a good way of differentiating cultures and tactics between them.

[Porphyre]

Oct 15, 2015 19:34:45 GMT -6 derv said:

Oct 15, 2015 19:24:20 GMT -6 mindcontrolsquid said:

That could lead to some interesting world-building elements revolving around orcs being displaced by human populations and turning to more powerful "leaders" in order to help them defend their lands from settlers. Kind of a spin on the Law/Chaos conflict, albeit one that might not mesh very well with how orcs are presented in OD&D...

Consider a little earlier history- French Indian Wars for instance.

The orcs will not be looking for someone powerful to defend them, they will be employed as mercenaries and scouts to a powerful persons or nations cause. The orcs will join only if it benefits them.

The mention of "red eye" and "white hand" orcs is reminsiscent of the way orcs function in in the Lord of the Rings : all absorbed in their internal petty squabbles unless forced to cooperate by a powerful wizard or sorcerer like Saruman, the Witch-King or Sauron or a powerful monster like the Balrog of Moria (if I'm not mistaken, the first printings mentioned a Balrog instead of a Dragon). 

Azog or the Goblin King, on the other hand , may be Orc Heroes, but level 7-9 Orc leaders would mean that Orcs don(t have the same level limits as dwarves and elfes.

[derv]

Oct 16, 2015 12:37:54 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

The mention of "red eye" and "white hand" orcs is reminsiscent of the way orcs function in in the Lord of the Rings : all absorbed in their internal petty squabbles unless forced to cooperate by a powerful wizard or sorcerer like Saruman, the Witch-King or Sauron or a powerful monster like the Balrog of Moria (if I'm not mistaken, the first printings mentioned a Balrog instead of a Dragon). 

Of course, there is Tolkien. I wasn't intentially speaking of allegory here by comparing orcs to native americans. Any tribal culture will do as an example of how such a society functioned. For me, the tendency to compare it to native americans is convenient. Aldarrons mention of Picts makes sense in this regard.

It's also worth noting that the references to the "red eye, white hand, mountains, modor, and isengarders" is not found in the LBB's (that I'm aware of, unless it was purged). They are found in Chainmail's description of orcs, though, which also talks of "giant orcs". So, it seems that aldarrons story is really that Arneson took Chainmails orcs and blended it with his Blackmoor Picts. That's a nice bit of trivia that I was unaware of.

[cooper]

Since 0d&d provides the daily cost allowance of Orc soldiers, gygax himself published a detailed CHAINMAIL skirmish of a wizard leading an Orc army, and the rule that multiple Orc tribes are forced into cohabitation based on #appearing--a rule adhered to even in B2 keep on the Borderland, I'm pretty sure that the default assumption of orcs is a tolkenian one (slave army to wizards, balrogs and dragons) and their neutral alignment in 0d&d makes them fit for a variety of name level characters.

This is important as well. In 1974 the only appearance of "Orc" was from Tolkien. I think people now days forget how unique to the professor that monster is. Orc is kind of a generic term now, but certainly would not have been back then.

Goblins, first seen in the hobbit, have chieftains and kings of their own type. But Yrch, literally translates as "slave". Orcs a slaves to powerful creatures. Of course people can do what they want in their own campaign, but try not to rewrite the history of the game to fit how you want orcs to be in your campaign.

[derv]

Oh brother...there's a reason I didn't bring up Tolkien in my explanation. There is too much speculation about Tolkiens intents in his writing. Go ask any number of Tolkien fans where orcs came from. Though many like the whole bit that they were originally elves tortured into submission by Melkor, this is not the only origin story. Then, once you introduce Middle Earth into a discussion the debate will ramble on and the original intent of the OP will get lost.

Let me start by saying that I agree Tolkiens influence on the term "orcs" is hard to ignore. In fact, I think I had said that in a post here just recently that was asking about playing in Middle Earth with OD&D. But, Tolkien did not invent the term "orc". Look up or google the etymology of the word. It's an old-english word and is at least known to occur in Beowulf. Likewise, goblins have been a part of Germanic myth and legend well before Tolkien picked up a pen. That Tolkien was aware of these things, I am sure.

It's obvious that Gygax introduced orcs into Chainmail as a result of LotR. Do I think Gygax or Arneson's intent was for orcs to be a slave race of monsters in OD&D and that they expected you to like wise play them this way- no.

Also, there is no rule that orc tribes are forced into cohabitation. You are misunderstanding what is being written and it's a strange twisting of a rule that goes counter to tribal hostility mentioned on the same page. M&T expects you to decide on your own what the tribes of orcs are in your campaign. Give them any name you'd like and assign each a number. They do not specify who the tribes are, like Chainmail does. Then when you role an encounter that involves orcs, roll another die to determine what tribe they are from. It then reminds you not to forget about inter tribal hostility for the benefit of roleplay in the big picture of a campaign.

B2 does not support this idea that orcs are a slave race, either. Nor does it contain cohabitating orcs from different tribes. It does have alliances with tribes in seperate lairs, though. B2 also presents orc leaders of 3HD & 4HD who do not seem to be answering to a dragon, magic user, or a Balrog.

There really isn't any rewriting of history occurring.

[Porphyre]

Warg isn't a wholly original tolkienian word, either. Yet , unlike elfes and goblins who already had a pretty good position as folkloric and fairy tales creatures that the Professor "just" rewrote, I'm not much convinced that there is a lot of mentions of "orcs" in english litterature or folklore betwwen the "eotenas ond ylfe ond orcneas" of Beowulf and the orcs of Tolkien (except maybe Red Orc from Blake poems, but it's a wholly different character). Orcneas usually become "ogres" in modern translations of Beowulf.

In this sense, it can be argued that Tolkien did indeed "invent" the orcs, albeit using an ancient word, in the same way that the eotneas ("giants") of the same verse became the Ents

[aldarron]

Oct 17, 2015 16:03:11 GMT -6 derv said:

....

It's obvious that Gygax introduced orcs into Chainmail as a result of LotR. Do I think Gygax or Arneson's intent was for orcs to be a slave race of monsters in OD&D and that they expected you to like wise play them this way- no.

.....

Agreed. In Blackmoor, the number appearing in a 10 mile Hex was 10-200, though more could appear in armies. Orc tribes, were widely distributed and did not co-habitate. Blackmoor dungeons' tribes did not get along.

They could be united under a strong banner, but in that way they were no different from humans. Otherwise they were generally led by kings, such as Blackmoors most famous Orc, King Funk I. King Funk was of course Fred Funk's (creator of Freds World) player character.

[derv]

I'm not much convinced that there is a lot of mentions of "orcs" in english litterature or folklore betwwen the "eotenas ond ylfe ond orcneas" of Beowulf and the orcs of Tolkien (except maybe Red Orc from Blake poems, but it's a wholly different character).

Tolkien was a philologist who studied, translated, and lectured on Beowulf. He acknowledges it's influence on his writing.

Many view the orcs from LotR as nothing more then reskinned goblins from the Hobbit.

Here we go down the rabbit hole.