Simplified surprise roll?

[Porphyre]

If the possibility for surprise exists roll a six-sided die for each  party concerned. A roll of 1 or 2 indicates the party is surprised.

UW&WA p9

Before later supplements and editions introduced more complex situations (monsters surprising on 1-4, classes rolling surprise with 1d10, etc.) the surprise rolls actually generate three possible outcomes: 

-the PCs are surprised and the monsters aren't (2 chances out of 9 - 22,22%): monsters get a free round of action
-the monsters are surprised and the PCs aren't (2 chances out of 9 - 22,22%): the PCs get a free action
-neither or both are surprised (5 chances ou of 9 -respectively 4 out of 9 and 1 out of 9- 55,55%) , the result being the same and the first round of action being determined by the initiative roll. 

Rounding up numbers, it could be possible to just roll a d10, with the following results: 
1-2: PCs are surprised and monsters act first
3-8: roll for initiative
9-0: monsters are surprised and the PCs act first. 

Or roll 1d6:
1-2: PCs are surprised
3-4: roll initiative
5-6: Monsters are surprised. 

The latter amplifies the chances of one party being surprised, but that could make combats swiftier. 

You can even add or substract a modifier: -1 if the circumstances are unfavorable to the PCs (like exceptionnaly quiet monsters) or +1 if they favor the PCs (elven boots, silence spells, etc.)

[tetramorph]

Porphyre, I like your analysis but I think there is a difference between neither or both being surprised.

True, it will not trump initiative and both sides will have to roll again for initiative.

But if both are surprised it means the parties will discover one another within surprise distance. And that is a heap of fun!

Because of that heap of fun possibility, I am going to stick with surprise as an opposing check.

[Stormcrow]

D&D also had a concept of "complete surprise," when you roll a 2 on the surprise die, which isn't mentioned in the original rules but shows up in some supplements as if we're perfectly clear what it means.

It doesn't need mechanical support in the rules; the referee can simply describe two different levels of surprise.

[Zenopus]

"There is a 25% chance that any character surprised by a monster will drop some
item. If he does, roll for the possibilities remembering that only these items held
could be so dropped." Vol 3, pg 12.

So even if both sides are surprised, 1/4 of characters will drop something they are holding (sword, shield, torch etc), complicating the next round.

[dragondaddy]

I always went with a d6. If anyone was surprised the initial encounter range was very close 1d4x10 feet(indoors), or yards (outdoors).

1-2 Player surprised - Monster gets one free round of actions
1-2 Monster Surprised - Player gets one free round of actions

If they both roll a 1-2 both are surprised, but the first round is a bye as neither players nor monster can take an action, or make an attack.

If both monster and player roll a 5 or6 neither is surprised, and the original encounter distance is extremely long at least 2x the normal randomly rolled encounter distance...

[Porphyre]

Sighting Monsters: Players will see monsters at 20 - 80 feet (roll a pair of foursided
 dice to determine the distance) unless they are surprised by the monster.

Surprise: (...) If the possibility for surprise exists roll a six-sided die for each
 party concerned. A roll of 1 or 2 indicates the party is surprised. Distance is then
 10-30 feet.

To be honest , I usually play the surprise distance only in the case of the PCs being surprised by unsurprised monsters , and I (also) tend to handwave distances.

Distance between two unsurprised parties is 2-8'', with a mean value of 5'' , but only a very few monsters of M&T have a movement rate of less than 6'', and the majority has a MR of 9''+: in other terms there maybe >75% of chances that both parties will be at another one's reach the next/very same round, which results in a similar outcome that two surprised parties (1-3'' distance , i-e both parties in reach the very same round)

The only really relevant issue could be in case of missile. 

So: if you still want to keep the "both parties surprised" situation , we have the following probabilities 
Both parties surpriseed : 1/9 = 11,11%
PC surprised/monsters not surprised: 2/9 = 22,22%
PC not surprised/monsters not surprised : 4/9 = 44,44%
PC not surprised/monsters surprised: 2/9 = 22,22%

This would give us the next "revised" simplified surprised roll (1d10)

0: both parties surprised (distance 1-3'')
1-2: PCs are surprised, monsters aren't (distance 1-3'')
3-7: Neither party is surprised (distance 2-8'')
8-9: Monsters are surprised , PC aren't (distance 2-8'')

[Zenopus]

Another reason that the two dice is used is that often the DM will only be rolling for one side - particularly for wandering monsters.

Vol 3: "Torches, lanterns and magic swords will illuminate the way, but they also allow monsters to "see" the users so that monsters will never be surprised unless coming through a door".

I suppose with your simplified version you can just ignore the result "monster surprised" when rolling on a d10 if there is no chance of surprising the monster, so PCs would just be surprised on a 0-2 (or 1-3, if using 0 as the high number).

[Deleted]

This is one thing I've never understood. The PCs are all armed to the teeth, covered in armor, and exploring the dungeon. They expect a monster behind every door and around every corner. How, exactly, are the PCs surprised to find a monster when they are out looking for monsters in the first place?

This rules break my immersion more than any other.

[mindcontrolsquid]

Oct 8, 2015 9:25:44 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

This is one thing I've never understood. The PCs are all armed to the teeth, covered in armor, and exploring the dungeon. They expect a monster behind every door and around every corner. How, exactly, are the PCs surprised to find a monster when they are out looking for monsters in the first place?

This rules break my immersion more than any other.

I suppose one could make an argument that the pacing and paranoia engendered in a dungeon environment could play with the party's expectations. If the party doesn't encounter monsters for a long stretch, they may grow complacent. Conversely, they may expect danger everywhere and thus be overly jumpy and nervous. The "surprise" doesn't necessarily come from the expectations of danger from the party, but in the way in which the dungeon plays tricks on them and creates an atmosphere of danger and mistrust of their senses. It's sort of like going to watch a horror movie: you expect to be scared, but you don't necessarily know in what way. Will it be a jump-scare film with monsters popping out of every corner? Will it be a more subtle horror film with only hints of danger lurking unseen in the stillness of every scene? Will it be more of an atmospheric horror film, with menace coming in the form of the hidden intentions of those around you? There's no way to know; the viewer expects terror but is not fully cognizant of its origin or effect. At least that's the way I see it.

[Porphyre]

Oct 8, 2015 5:36:43 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Another reason that the two dice is used is that often the DM will only be rolling for one side - particularly for wandering monsters.

Vol 3: "Torches, lanterns and magic swords will illuminate the way, but they also allow monsters to "see" the users so that monsters will never be surprised unless coming through a door".

I suppose with your simplified version you can just ignore the result "monster surprised" when rolling on a d10 if there is no chance of surprising the monster, so PCs would just be surprised on a 0-2 (or 1-3, if using 0 as the high number).

Right. 

But, if I deem that there is no chance of surprise for one of the parties concerned (the PC were all noise and lights, or in the opposite , if they use any method of scying), I would probably fall back to the usual d6 ,1 out of 3 chances method.


One of the  objectives of this unified roll was actually to handle myself all the surprise, and saving myself one roll.
First : the players don't know the result of the surprise roll ( actually they don't even know there is a surpris roll before I announce the outcome!). 
Second: with online "play-by-post" games on internet forum it saves one roll, so I don't have to ask for the roll and wait for the result to post the next message 

[Stormcrow]

Oct 8, 2015 9:25:44 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

How, exactly, are the PCs surprised to find a monster when they are out looking for monsters in the first place?

It's not surprise as in, "Oh! My goodness, a monster!" It's surprise as in, "Whoa! Monster around that corner! Get in formation! Don't step on my toes! I was in the middle of scratching my nose! Magic-user, hold the torch. I don't wanna hold the torch. Hold the torch, d**nit! Where's the thief? I thought you were going to hide in the shadows?"

[Deleted]

Oct 8, 2015 12:13:47 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

It's not surprise as in, "Oh! My goodness, a monster!" It's surprise as in, "Whoa! Monster around that corner! Get in formation! Don't step on my toes! I was in the middle of scratching my nose! Magic-user, hold the torch. I don't wanna hold the torch. Hold the torch, d**nit! Where's the thief? I thought you were going to hide in the shadows?"

I can understand surprise if the monster is hidden (i.e. a spider on the ceiling) or a wandering encounter. But the surprise roll still applies when they party opens a door and enters a room. The exact time they wouldn't be distracted or complacent. Similarly, a high level party that has seen it all would be almost impossible to surprise unless magical invisibility or teleportation is involved.

[Stormcrow]

Oct 8, 2015 13:21:32 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

But the surprise roll still applies when they party opens a door and enters a room. The exact time they wouldn't be distracted or complacent.

It's not just about distracted or complacent. You don't know WHAT is behind the door, and your subconscious expectations may be way off. Maybe the monster is on the left instead of the right and this threw you. Maybe there's a lot more than you expected. Or a lot fewer. Maybe it happened to be moving toward the door when you opened it, and you moved into a defensive position before it stopped to check you out. Maybe the monster is disgusting and you need a moment to gag.

It doesn't matter. The point is that you can't always react perfectly, so D&D imposes a surprise check. It's about as realistic as hit points or initiative.

[Deleted]

It also reflects the fact that human attentiveness has a fairly short limit. You can't stay at "red alert" forever. After the first day or so, casualties among recon troops skyrocket.

Also also, it's a game thing. It adds excitement.

I think it's already pretty simple, though. Just scoop up a red six sider for the monsters and a white for the players.

[Torreny]

Oct 8, 2015 19:43:35 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

It also reflects the fact that human attentiveness has a fairly short limit. You can't stay at "red alert" forever. After the first day or so, casualties among recon troops skyrocket.

Also also, it's a game thing. It adds excitement.

I think it's already pretty simple, though. Just scoop up a red six sider for the monsters and a white for the players.

Don't forget the 'bumbling around in the basement with your visor down' bit.


Hedgehobbit, caves and dungeons would be right inky, never mind that your torches are going to be making their own spooks as you advance. Hell, if you're not 100% proper with distribution of torches in relation to peoples' line of sight, at least someone is going to be blinded by the torch anyhoo. It's a big confusing mess of light and dark, armour and mildew, living and dead. Seems pretty immersive to me.

[Porphyre]

Oct 8, 2015 9:36:59 GMT -6 mindcontrolsquid said:

Now that you mention it, I realize I could use "cat scare" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CatScare) more often. 
That ! would be a good reason to make the players roll for surprise:

"DM: Suddenly, you hear a noise in the darness behind you! Roll 1d6 for surprise !
Player: 1, dammit!
DM: An old rat comes running from a pile of waste.
P: Phew! 
DM: A BUGBEAR JUMPS YOU FROM THE CEILING! You take 5 points of damage ..."  

[aldarron]

Oct 7, 2015 17:29:34 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

D&D also had a concept of "complete surprise," when you roll a 2 on the surprise die, which isn't mentioned in the original rules but shows up in some supplements as if we're perfectly clear what it means.

It doesn't need mechanical support in the rules; the referee can simply describe two different levels of surprise.

That's really interesting, nice find. I bet that idea of complete surprise was expressed in this Gygax houserule from an online game, as recorded by Robert Fischer:

"* 1d6 for surprise. 1=1 round. 2=2 rounds. 3 or more=no surprise."

Could be that Gary was playing that way all along.

[aldarron]

Oct 7, 2015 15:14:26 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

If the possibility for surprise exists roll a six-sided die for each  party concerned. A roll of 1 or 2 indicates the party is surprised.

UW&WA p9

Before later supplements and editions introduced more complex situations (monsters surprising on 1-4, classes rolling surprise with 1d10, etc.) the surprise rolls actually generate three possible outcomes: 

-the PCs are surprised and the monsters aren't (2 chances out of 9 - 22,22%): monsters get a free round of action
-the monsters are surprised and the PCs aren't (2 chances out of 9 - 22,22%): the PCs get a free action
-neither or both are surprised (5 chances ou of 9 -respectively 4 out of 9 and 1 out of 9- 55,55%) , the result being the same and the first round of action being determined by the initiative roll. 

Rounding up numbers, it could be possible to just roll a d10, ....

Oct 8, 2015 13:21:32 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

But the surprise roll still applies when they party opens a door and enters a room. The exact time they wouldn't be distracted or complacent.

There seems to be some confusion here. Neither of these statements apply to the surprise roll in OD&D, perhaps reflecting habits from later games.

Firstly, surprise is only checked sometimes. "If the possibility exists" should be understood as "when a situation arises in which the party concerned might be caught unaware".

You don't automatically check for surprise, as it says: "A Condition of surprise can only exist when one or both parties are unaware of the presence of the other. Such things as ESP'ing, light, and noise will negate surprise." and "Torches, lanterns and magic swords will illuminate the way, but they also allow monsters to "see" the users so that monsters will never be surprised unless coming through a door."

So most of the time somebody is going to see or hear somebody coming.

Likewise, when you do check surprise, you don't usually check both sides, and this includes when an awareparty opens a door.

"CAL: Listen at the east door.
REF: (After appropriate check) You hear shuffling.
CAL: Two of us (specifying which two) will throw our weight against the door to open it. All will be ready
for combat.
REF: (After rolling two dice:) The door opens! You can't be surprised, but the monsters - you see half-adozen Gnolls - can be (Here a check for surprise is made, melee conducted, and so on.)"

So basically any party being reasonably cautious is not going to have a surprise roll unless they are caught by a door opening unexpectedly, or by persons or monsters lying in wait, or they are asleep, etc.

[Porphyre]

As I say, I still can use the 1d6 if I deem that only one of the two parties could be surprised (or ignore the "monsters surprised" result). But the possibility of both being surprised is still present and mentioned. 

Surprise: A Condition of surprise can only exist when one or both parties are unaware
 of the presence of the other.

(emphasis mine). 

All encounters don't always occur entering a room. Two parties could find themselves face to face around a corner via the magic of a "wandering monster" check.

[Zenopus]

Oct 11, 2015 8:14:27 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Firstly, surprise is only checked sometimes. "If the possibility exists" should be understood as "when a situation arises in which the party concerned might be caught unaware".

You don't automatically check for surprise, as it says: "A Condition of surprise can only exist when one or both parties are unaware of the presence of the other. Such things as ESP'ing, light, and noise will negate surprise." and "Torches, lanterns and magic swords will illuminate the way, but they also allow monsters to "see" the users so that monsters will never be surprised unless coming through a door."

So most of the time somebody is going to see or hear somebody coming.

Likewise, when you do check surprise, you don't usually check both sides, and this includes when an awareparty opens a door.

"CAL: Listen at the east door.
REF: (After appropriate check) You hear shuffling.
CAL: Two of us (specifying which two) will throw our weight against the door to open it. All will be ready
for combat.
REF: (After rolling two dice:) The door opens! You can't be surprised, but the monsters - you see half-adozen Gnolls - can be (Here a check for surprise is made, melee conducted, and so on.)"

So basically any party being reasonably cautious is not going to have a surprise roll unless they are caught by a door opening unexpectedly, or by persons or monsters lying in wait, or they are asleep, etc.

This is basically how I use it when playing. It's sort of a perception check - or a saving throw - when a monster attacks unexpectedly (drops from the ceiling, jumps out from a hidden spot, etc), and the characters roll 3-6, they are not surprised by this unexpected attack.