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Post by bestialwarlust on Aug 29, 2015 8:39:46 GMT -6
So besides using the Melnibonean as a race of ancient cast outs to use in a setting has anyone done anything with the works of Lovecraft or Clark Asthon Smith to use as a drow like race? Do you even use drow at all in your od&d games?
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Post by kesher on Aug 29, 2015 8:52:50 GMT -6
I had a player run a Lovecraftian ghoul named Goolio...  I've never used drow, but I have tinkered with a special connection between elves and ghouls, with the immunity to paralysis being based on an ancient pact between the first Elven Lord and the immortal Ghoul King. |
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Post by sepulchre on Aug 29, 2015 9:34:02 GMT -6
Kesher, 'the pact', interesting expansion on the immunity to paralysis, very cool. I have always followed the paralysis connection to fear (paralyzed by fear or flee in panic) as described in the AD&D MM. Should we be gaming with a fantasy element in the campaign, the immunity of elves to paralysis speaks to their essential nature being one of light and thus they are not subject to many of the depredations of the undead.
Drow, not so much these days, but humans working together with much the same Machiavellian, clandestine and sadistic appetites, yes...criminal organizations and those trafficking in the dark arts. Magic and sadism can make for some rather alien atmospheres.
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Post by ritt on Aug 29, 2015 11:38:57 GMT -6
From my own campaign:
Lolth's Demonweb is a sort of dungeon-dimension underneath reality. When Lolth's spider-cultists have corrupted a world and it reaches a certain level of extreme decadence and cruelty, the stars go out in the sky as the planet drops out of time and space to hang in the dark demonweb like a marble caught in a massive spiderweb.
I made ettercaps (From the Fiend Folio, a monster that's an odd favorite of mine) more like Lovecraft's Deep Ones, only with spiders instead of fish. About one in a hundred can pass as a handsome but creepy elf with unblinking eyes. They seduce human women, and nine months later the poor lady goes quite mad when she gives birth to not a baby but rather a swarm of thousands of hairy spiders. A few of the ones that scurry to dark places slowly grow into ettercaps. The more human-looking ones go among weak-willed or corrupt men and spread spider-cults, the more-spidery ones act as muscle for jobs the drow consider themselves above.
The Neogi (From Spelljammer, another personal fave) were the original race that served Loth before the prettier and cooler drow came along and stole their place in the spotlight. They will never, ever forget or forgive this and are bitter enemies of the drow. They are basically Loth's Taliban or ISIS.
By the way, the recent OSR module Deep Carbon Observatory has a great new take on the TSR Drow/Underdark mythos that I can't recommend enough. It really succeeds in making the Underdark feel like not just a bigger dungeon but like an utterly alien realm hostile to surface life on a basic level. Seriously, it's gold.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Aug 29, 2015 11:50:35 GMT -6
From my own campaign: By the way, the recent OSR module Deep Carbon Observatory has a great new take on the TSR Drow/Underdark mythos that I can't recommend enough. It really succeeds in making the Underdark feel like not just a bigger dungeon but like an utterly alien realm hostile to surface life on a basic level. Seriously, it's gold. I recently picked that up . I'll take a look there. |
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Post by kesher on Aug 29, 2015 14:25:09 GMT -6
Holy Smack, ritt--that is completely creepy! And I second the thumbs-up for DCO. Also check out Fire on the Velvet Horizon--it's the most astounding monster manual ever made... Actually, there are creatures in that book that'd be great thematic replacements for both g-standard drow... |
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Aug 29, 2015 16:53:04 GMT -6
My campaign is basically Celtic mythos vs. Cthulhu mythos, with the Faerie realm being it's own weird thing. I was trying to cone up wih some new ideas for woodsie-type elves and remembered the Daikinie from Ravkham's Confrontation game, I managed to chase the idea full circle to having spiders and elves in the forest together before I realized I had created "forest drow." I like that ettercap idea, going to have to work that in. Ettercaps are the new half-elves!
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Post by ritt on Aug 29, 2015 17:46:49 GMT -6
And I second the thumbs-up for DCO. Also check out Fire on the Velvet Horizon--it's the most astounding monster manual ever made... Actually, there are creatures in that book that'd be great thematic replacements for both g-standard drow... I love FotVH's Paladins of the Fall... a great answer to the question of "Just where do all these dungeons come from?". I strongly suspect the drow were inspired by the evil elves of Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions (Like drow they hate the sun, but instead of dwelling underground the lands Chaos conquers get trapped in eternal twilight). I think that novel is sorta the Rosetta Stone of OD&D and find it really inspirational. Gygax added the spider connection and the jet black skin, however. |
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Post by Red Baron on Aug 29, 2015 19:40:56 GMT -6
Drow have always seemed kind of dopey to me, unless you play them over-the-top goofy evil.
The elfs in "3 hearts and 3 lions" on the other hand are awesome, so I see regular ol' elfs being aligned with chaos rather than law.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Aug 29, 2015 20:20:55 GMT -6
And I second the thumbs-up for DCO. Also check out Fire on the Velvet Horizon--it's the most astounding monster manual ever made... Actually, there are creatures in that book that'd be great thematic replacements for both g-standard drow... I love FotVH's Paladins of the Fall... a great answer to the question of "Just where do all these dungeons come from?". I strongly suspect the drow were inspired by the evil elves of Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions (Like drow they hate the sun, but instead of dwelling underground the lands Chaos conquers get trapped in eternal twilight). I think that novel is sorta the Rosetta Stone of OD&D and find it really inspirational. Gygax added the spider connection and the jet black skin, however. It's been a while since I've read Three Hearts and Three Lions I'll have to re read the book again as I don't remember the elves. |
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Post by Red Baron on Aug 29, 2015 20:27:40 GMT -6
Whimsical hedonist sorcerers with goblin slaves. Hurt by iron.
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Post by Falconer on Aug 29, 2015 21:30:58 GMT -6
The most obvious replacements for main-underdark-baddie I suppose are serpentmen (see The Nameless City). You can also very easily just take out the Drow and you still have mind flayers, kuo-toa, and derro, to name a few (see Night Below). All four creatures I’ve mentioned are totally grounded in Lovecraft. Matt Finch’s Cyclopean Deeps is a major OSR overhaul of the underdark concept which I think has gotten too little attention. It is really a masterpiece, doing for the underdark what Anomalous Subsurface Environment has done for the dungeon. Look up some reviews. Getting rid of drow opens up the opportunity to employ surface-dwelling evil elves more akin to Moorcock’s Melniboneans, or Feist’s Moredhil, or even MERP’s Lords of Ardor. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 30, 2015 5:15:02 GMT -6
Moorcock's Melnibonian race seems an obvious choice, but you could also consider dusting off the githyanki and githzerai as ancient races battling for suprimacy.
I once ran a campaign where the main movers-and-shakers of the world were a council of immortals and I used the three races above along with a couple of variants of elves (I think I used Tolkien's Noldor and Sindar) along with the drow. I think I threw in the two warring races from Moorcock's Corum books as well. That gave me eight or so factions to work with. My intent was to build in intrigue and elves-against-elves in an eternal struggle.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Aug 30, 2015 7:23:01 GMT -6
Moorcock's Melnibonian race seems an obvious choice, but you could also consider dusting off the githyanki and githzerai as ancient races battling for suprimacy. I once ran a campaign where the main movers-and-shakers of the world were a council of immortals and I used the three races above along with a couple of variants of elves (I think I used Tolkien's Noldor and Sindar) along with the drow. I think I threw in the two warring races from Moorcock's Corum books as well. That gave me eight or so factions to work with. My intent was to build in intrigue and elves-against-elves in an eternal struggle. Thanks for the suggestions and idea's. I'm think I might go toward the melnibonean as my ancient "elven" ancestors. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Aug 30, 2015 8:38:21 GMT -6
Not Lovecraft or CAS, but I believe ERB is sort of in the same ball park. How about the White Martians, the Therns? |
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JMiskimen
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Post by JMiskimen on Aug 30, 2015 9:58:01 GMT -6
Not Lovecraftian either but why not the Scaven?
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Post by kesher on Aug 30, 2015 10:20:16 GMT -6
Falconer: I somehow had not heard of The Cyclopean Deeps! Awesome!
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Post by Porphyre on Aug 31, 2015 11:22:36 GMT -6
The elves of Margaret St Clair in "The Shadow People" are perhaps not very lovecraftian, but -imho- they certainly are less "hollywood-style evil" than drow. More akin to the "little people" from Machen's shorts stories and novellas.
I always found the "evil-ness" of the drow bordering to James Bond villainy, with sophisticated evil sorcerers and seductive dark prietesses who invite you to dinner before casually informing you that the rare wine you just sipped was poisened, mwahahahaha !
St Clair's and Machen's "dark elves" have a much more "raw", savage and primitive quality of evil: almost innocent in the way of children pulling off the wings and legs of a flee, yet immensely wicked.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Aug 31, 2015 12:48:58 GMT -6
More good ideas for faerie folk come from White Wolf's "Changeling: the Lost" wherein the various fey denizens are pawns in the schemes of the faerie powers, who have truly bizarre and alien motivations.
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Post by scottenkainen on Sept 1, 2015 11:49:37 GMT -6
I have typically replaced drow with dark creepers and dark stalkers, also from the Fiend Folio.
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by premmy on Sept 1, 2015 17:56:39 GMT -6
I have typically replaced drow with dark creepers and dark stalkers, also from the Fiend Folio. ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper Oh, I like that! Also, for a Lovecraftian feel, if the campaign doesn't involve much actual interaction with their culture - so no staying at their "taverns" and taking missions from local nobles and whatnot - then the Mi-go might be a distinctive and scary option. |
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Post by bestialwarlust on Sept 1, 2015 18:02:23 GMT -6
I have typically replaced drow with dark creepers and dark stalkers, also from the Fiend Folio. ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper That's a good one I always forget about them. |
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Post by ritt on Sept 1, 2015 18:46:46 GMT -6
I've never used drow, but I have tinkered with a special connection between elves and ghouls, with the immunity to paralysis being based on an ancient pact between the first Elven Lord and the immortal Ghoul King. This is an awesome idea. The pact of course, was written on human flesh, back in the half-forgotten morning of the world when elves saw men as just clever pets and ghouls saw them as food animals. Maybe drow aren't degenerate elves that drifted away from old elf culture... they're conservative fundamentalist elves who held on to it. |
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Post by Red Baron on Sept 1, 2015 20:55:00 GMT -6
Maybe drow aren't degenerate elves that drifted away from old elf culture... they're conservative fundamentalist elves who held on to it. Creepy!  |
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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on Sept 2, 2015 10:20:06 GMT -6
d**n, Spider Deep Ones! That's just...awesomely awful.
I can't think of any real good candidates that are actually from CAS, but he did have a thing about plants that is a bit distinctively his. Both stories about Mal Dweb, which are among the most D&D-like of his stuff (excepting the two Satampra Zeiros stories, of course), have creepy plants; the second one has Flower Women (or something. I haven't read it in a while). I'm blanking on the name of the story where the civilization (world?) is ruled by evil plants. Evil, subterranean plants could only be that much better!
Maybe they are nourished not by sunlight but by the weird, underground radiation that traditionally empowers Drow weapons. Maybe they feed on human blood and flesh. Maybe their seed pods can only germinate inside the brain of an animal.
Oh!; there are some other weird being in the "Seven Geases".
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Post by bestialwarlust on Sept 2, 2015 11:18:59 GMT -6
Some interesting suggestions. I'm thinking of somehow mixing a melinbonean, with the elf/ghoul pact above and sprinkling in the dark stalker/creeper. Basically just dropping "drow" and using some sort of dark elf concept that made a pact with some sort of true ghoul race. Then putting these dark elves or whatever I'll finalize on them, in charge of/in league with the dark stalker/creepers. Most people blame these "dark skinned" elves for crimes when in fact it's just agents of these elven "masters"
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Post by The Fiendish Dr. Samsara on Sept 2, 2015 11:45:12 GMT -6
One thing that I have to say I may be too sensitive to is the whole "dark-skinned/black" thing. I know it's not any real-world ethnicity, but still. I liked that Tolkien's Dark Elves are just elves that haven't seen the light (in multiple senses). I did a thing where Elves predated humanity and created the sun to help the earth become fertile; a group opposed this idea and became the Dark Elves.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Sept 2, 2015 13:08:33 GMT -6
One thing that I have to say I may be too sensitive to is the whole "dark-skinned/black" thing. I know it's not any real-world ethnicity, but still. I liked that Tolkien's Dark Elves are just elves that haven't seen the light (in multiple senses). I did a thing where Elves predated humanity and created the sun to help the earth become fertile; a group opposed this idea and became the Dark Elves. The skin color never bothered me much but i prefer the Morsindar of Harn. And the dark elves of krynn where they are just normal elves that have been cast out from their brethren. My thought is to use the dark stalker's as false dark elves. Much like real life legends change and distort over time When players hear of dark skinned humanoids or "elves"they will assume drow. Most who have encountered them will label them as dark elves although they have nothing to do with elves. Later if the group gets curious enough they may probe deeper to find out a darker truth. That at one time all the elves were "evil" enslaving lesser races. It was only a small minority that "saw the light" and left the ways of the forefathers. |
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Post by Zenopus on Sept 2, 2015 15:00:54 GMT -6
Lots of great ideas here. A few more: -Troglodytes - underused in D&D, particularly in a "Kingdom of Troglodytes" version. -Holmes' Dagonites (basically Deep Ones but heavier on the frog than fish). Bobjester just wrote up a version for his blog Prime Requisite. -Yuan-Ti/Mongrelmen (as described in L1 Dwellers of the Forbidden City). You could even have the Yuan-Ti be former elves rather than humans. -Change goblinoids into a hierarchy of intelligent, burrowing insectoids. Bugbears are literally "bugs" the size of bears. |
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Post by ritt on Sept 2, 2015 17:54:41 GMT -6
One thing that I have to say I may be too sensitive to is the whole "dark-skinned/black" thing. I know it's not any real-world ethnicity, but still. In a lot of D&D art, and in weird porny cartoons on DeviantArt, drow are shown as having purple, grey, or light brown skin. Like people, kinda. Relatable. Human-ish. But in Gygax's original descriptions, their skin is absolute jet midnight-at-the-bottom-of-a-coal-mine _BLACK_. Like polished black latex coated in silicone gel in an expensive fetish video, or obsidian, or maybe like the shiny skin of a dolphin only black instead of grey or pink. That's really hard to get across in artwork. That would look nothing like any human ethnicity on Earth. It would be a creepy mix of alien, intimidating, and maybe even erotic (Albeit in a terrifying way). Imagine the Alien monster, only with hair like silver spiderwebs, the grace of a ballet dancer, and ancient violet eyes that it can fix on you. Drow are one of D&D's most popular contributions to modern fantasy, yet D&D art has seldom served them well, IMHO. |
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