leg1on
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 88 
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Post by leg1on on May 12, 2015 14:16:30 GMT -6
Hi All,
Can some kind soul point me to the source in which Gygax said "the first six levels *are* the characters' backstory"?
For something I've seen quoted a fair few times online I'm having a hell of a time finding him actually saying it.
Thanks much,
Legion
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LouGoncey
Level 4 Theurgist
"Lather. Rinse. Repeat. That's my philosophy."
Posts: 108
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Post by LouGoncey on May 12, 2015 19:51:52 GMT -6
I do not know where that quote is from, but I always heard it as the first three levels.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 8:11:04 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure that the first six levels are backstory thing comes from Monte Cook and 3e. It was his justification for why you couldn't have prestige classes start any lower.
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leg1on
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 88
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Post by leg1on on May 13, 2015 10:32:18 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure that the first six levels are backstory thing comes from Monte Cook and 3e. It was his justification for why you couldn't have prestige classes start any lower. As I said elsewhere, can you give me that source, so this isn't just the same vaporous "quote" attached to a different person's name? I am really quite fascinated that so many people know this so-called quote but nobody -- so far -- can point to its source. |
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Post by peterlind on May 13, 2015 16:50:53 GMT -6
Could this perhaps have been stated by Michael Mornard? Here's a reference to something similar, but perhaps a more definite quote could be tracked down . . . blogofholding.com/?p=3810 |
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leg1on
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 88
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Post by leg1on on May 13, 2015 18:09:05 GMT -6
d**n. That's a good one.
It may be that this "quote" I'm after is in actual fact a broadly-held sensibility.
Ah well. That's good too.
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Post by angelicdoctor on May 13, 2015 20:43:07 GMT -6
The quote does not exist in Gary's Role-playing Mastery book.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 14, 2015 4:46:06 GMT -6
If such a quote exists, I suspect it would be an AD&D or later thing. OD&D was designed originally for lower level characters, capping out somewhere around level 10, so it would be odd to have the first six represent back story. Since AD&D was designed to go to level 20 it would be more logical to have it be an AD&D quote.
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Post by peterlind on May 14, 2015 16:49:27 GMT -6
Here's another quote from Michael Mornard that might be in the ballpark of what you are looking for: forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?754367-The-Opposite-of-Zipper-GMing/page5POST #45: Now, part of the problem is that a lot of people ignored, scoffed at, or disliked level titles, rather than paying attention to them and assuming that Gary used them intentionally. A 4th level fighter is a Hero. That's more than "just a name." It's a statement, and Gary and Dave played it that way. If you're a 4th level fighter, you are a Hero, complete with the capital letter. You are Bard the Bowman. (This is made explicit in CHAINMAIL where a Hero armed with a bow has a chance of shooting a dragon out of the air.) You are Boromir, and when you succumb to your wounds there will be twenty dead orcs around you. You're a HERO. You're badass, dude! If you want to jump off your horse and land behind the bad guy, you do it like a Hero! If you want to tie up the bad guy, you do it like a Hero! Et cetera. If you're a first level fighter, you do these things like a Veteran. If you're a 5th level fighter, you do these things like a Swashbuckler -- Errol Flynn! If you're 7th level, you're a Champion! As in, "The Queen's Champion will joust with all comers!" Maybe your Hero doesn't know how to sail, but he knows how to command a ship. Your Magician may not be real good at leaping off a horse and landing behind a bad guy, but they know shmot guy stuff. Anybody knows what the local edible plants are; in a new area, though, that is your Ranger's call, she knows. ....this is another chapter in my book, isn't it. |
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Post by jmccann on May 14, 2015 19:37:18 GMT -6
Hi All, Can some kind soul point me to the source in which Gygax said "the first six levels *are* the characters' backstory"? This does not sound like a Gygax quote. |
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leg1on
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 88
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Post by leg1on on May 14, 2015 22:30:33 GMT -6
Hi All, Can some kind soul point me to the source in which Gygax said "the first six levels *are* the characters' backstory"? This does not sound like a Gygax quote. Be that as it may, there are a fair few people who disagree with you. Safe to say you don't know the source then? |
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Post by scottenkainen on May 14, 2015 22:42:48 GMT -6
I don't think we have to presume that it is a Gygax quote until proven otherwise...
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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leg1on
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 88
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Post by leg1on on May 14, 2015 22:43:46 GMT -6
So it's been said, I allow for the possibility I have the precise wording incorrect.
What I'm after is something -- from Gary Gygax -- that comes close enough to be considered the same.
I am also willing to accept he never said it. But that raises the question of why so many people think he did.
E.g.,:
"Character background is what happens between Level 1 and 6" - E Gary Gygax"
"I think Gary Gygax once said 'the first 6 levels are the character's back story.'"
I don't have to look hard to find people quoting it as something from Gygax. What I haven't been able to do is find Gygax saying it.
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Post by jmccann on May 15, 2015 22:56:44 GMT -6
This does not sound like a Gygax quote. Be that as it may, there are a fair few people who disagree with you. Safe to say you don't know the source then? Not quite sure how you expect me to respond to your question. You presume such a quotation exists and I clearly do not. If such a source existed and I were aware of it I would not have responded as I did. Leaving aside the question of whether the statement as written is an accurate quotation, can you point to any writings or interviews which are clearly attributed to Gygax where he expresses a similar thought? |
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leg1on
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 88
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Post by leg1on on May 16, 2015 0:49:48 GMT -6
... can you point to any writings or interviews which are clearly attributed to Gygax where he expresses a similar thought? No, that's actually why I started this thread. I'm hoping to find it. I get it. You don't think he said it. Thanks for your input. |
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Post by scalydemon on May 16, 2015 8:29:27 GMT -6
‘There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception.’ - Aldous Huxley  |
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leg1on
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 88
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Post by leg1on on May 16, 2015 12:42:20 GMT -6
‘There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception.’ - Aldous Huxley I hear you buddy! |
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Post by derv on May 16, 2015 15:28:56 GMT -6
Could it be that it's misconstrued and actually had to do with the 6 ability scores creating backstory for the character?
Unfortunately I don't have any citations for Gary saying that either, but it makes more sense to me.
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leg1on
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 88
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Post by leg1on on May 17, 2015 19:48:53 GMT -6
Could it be that it's misconstrued and actually had to do with the 6 ability scores creating backstory for the character? Unfortunately I don't have any citations for Gary saying that either, but it makes more sense to me. I don't know if that's the case but I like your idea. It's a very intriguing possibility. You just opened my mind. Thanks man. Legion |
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Post by exploderwizard on May 18, 2015 10:31:06 GMT -6
Now, part of the problem is that a lot of people ignored, scoffed at, or disliked level titles, rather than paying attention to them and assuming that Gary used them intentionally. A 4th level fighter is a Hero. That's more than "just a name." It's a statement, and Gary and Dave played it that way. If you're a 4th level fighter, you are a Hero, complete with the capital letter. You are Bard the Bowman. (This is made explicit in CHAINMAIL where a Hero armed with a bow has a chance of shooting a dragon out of the air.) You are Boromir, and when you succumb to your wounds there will be twenty dead orcs around you. You're a HERO. You're badass, dude! If you want to jump off your horse and land behind the bad guy, you do it like a Hero! If you want to tie up the bad guy, you do it like a Hero! Et cetera. Of course, elves got to be the baddest of the bad. Who wants to tangle with a Superhero Necromancer?  |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 1:28:20 GMT -6
Could it be that it's misconstrued and actually had to do with the 6 ability scores creating backstory for the character? Unfortunately I don't have any citations for Gary saying that either, but it makes more sense to me. Definitely not that. I think the quote was more like, "Character background is what happens in the first ____ levels." I don't remember if I actually saw the original source or not, but if I did, it was probably in one of his articles in Dragon magazine. According to a website, his contributions to the mag were mostly in the issues prior to #104; in particular the site lists an article in issue 102, titled "Realms of Role-Playing", which sounds like the right subject matter for what I'm thinking of. However, he also did a whole series of "Up on a Soapbox" columns from roughly issue 267 to the early 300s, and it could easily have been in almost any one of them. Assuming any of my memories of this are even real, the article was basically pooh-poohing the trend toward creating elaborate back-stories for newly created characters. You don't need character backgrounds, the assertion went; "Character background is what happens in the first ___ levels," i.e., you're writing it through the process of playing the game. Given that by the time I saw it I was deeply into heavy-duty role-playing and extensively thought-out character backgrounds, I remember thinking that the comment had a somewhat sarcastic or dismissive tone, not to mention a bit of a curmudgeonly "Hey you kids get off my lawn" feel.  |
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Post by magremore on Jul 9, 2015 16:40:26 GMT -6
Lord Google turns up Dragon Magazine #102 but no such quote, exact or paraphrased.
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Post by grodog on Jul 13, 2015 15:18:22 GMT -6
However, he also did a whole series of "Up on a Soapbox" columns from roughly issue 267 to the early 300s, and it could easily have been in almost any one of them. That doesn't ring any bells from the latter-day Soapbox articles: I have a summary of them on my site @ www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_soapbox.htmlAllan. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 2:29:25 GMT -6
Lord Google turns up Dragon Magazine #102 but no such quote, exact or paraphrased. Somehow it never occurs to me that things like complete old Dragon mags might be available online. Agreed -- this article is clearly not the memory I was looking for. (Although, if my memory turns out to be a manufactured one, then this article was undoubtedly one of the components.) I see your summary is limited to the specifically Greyhawk-related ones, starting with #287. I doubt that what I'm picturing would have been in a tales-of-Greyhawk article, so between your recall and mine, we can clearly rule out the ones from #287 on. I'm not sure whether your "doesn't ring any bells" also applies to the Soapboxes from 267 to 286...? John |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 15, 2015 8:13:07 GMT -6
I’ve spent some more time looking for information on this, and I think what I’m finding is pretty much what everyone else is finding. I guess that’s not much help. The earliest quote similar to this that I have found so far goes back to a blog by Blackrazor. The quote isn’t in the blog entry itself, but is in a comment at the bottom by a guy named Al and its posting date is recorded as July 8, 2009. There is also an interesting tidbit on ENworld dealing with the E6 (Epic6) variant of d20. It’s dated May 1, 2010. The DMG quote, of course, was from 1979. I’m guessing that when E6 was written it was with the idea that 6th level was a good cap level. Whether this was influenced by an actual quote or extrapolated from the above quote is hard to say for certain. The poster “Al” may have been remembering essentially the same quote and filled in details to generate his version of the quote. So, I think we’re down to a few options: (1) Gary never said it. (2) Gary said something like it for OD&D, but “first three levels” prior to becoming a Hero. (3) Gary said something like it for AD&D, with “first six levels” intact in some manner. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 21:29:53 GMT -6
The quote isn’t in the blog entry itself, but is in a comment at the bottom by a guy named Al and its posting date is recorded as July 8, 2009. The poster of this comment is Al Krombach who runs the beyondtheblackgate.blogspot.com/ blog as was a co-author of Warriors of the Red Planet. |
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Post by sepulchre on Jul 18, 2015 12:19:54 GMT -6
Scalydemon wrote:
And there's always..."There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know" - Donald Rumsfeld
Finarvyn wrote:
Good find.
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Post by derv on Jul 18, 2015 12:31:52 GMT -6
Donald Rumsfeld. Sepulchre, you slay me
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Post by sepulchre on Jul 18, 2015 12:44:05 GMT -6
Haha! Thanks Derv I couldn't resist. |
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