Tired of attack routines

[machfront]

This is related to my near-endless waffling over early editions (and house rules) of late so it's on my mind.

I think I'm finally sick and tired and done with attack routines.

This is fine because, well, 3LBBs/DD/S&W:WB,etc. I don't have to worry about it.
This is a real shame because I still love Holmes (and B/X is still near and dear at times).

I was wondering if it was doable to dispense with attack routines in versions of D&D/clones that otherwise use them and if anyone has experience/ideas in this area.

Because, really, I'm so very tired of four PCs vs. (for example) five gargoyles and having to sit there and roll 'to hit' for each freakin' claw and mumblemumble who does it hit...another claw...at who?...a bite...another beastie's claw and another and a bite....a tail...horns...and ZZZzzzzzz....

[bea]

My solution is to keep the rules system intact but think more about the situation and add more events and non-attack actions.

The environment changes, the monsters move around or step back, act more defensive and generally more unpredictable. Basically, if the DM is bored something needs to HAPPEN. Maybe the gargoyle will leg it after taking two hits? Regroup to a different position? Grab a PC and drag it away? Tip a book shelf over the group?

[waysoftheearth]

Hey machfront, I'm not sure exactly where you're headed, but sounds like maybe you're looking for a quicker/more abstract method of combat resolution?

It's been mentioned a number of times that EGG allowed higher level fighters to simply roll for number of kills each turn vs orcs.  I think it was something like 1d6 kills for heroes or 2d6 kills for superheroes.

But what do you mean by "attack routines"?  Do you mean the GH style breakdown that says Gargoyles have 4 attacks at 1-6/1-4/1-3/1-3 damage?  If so then I agree; that's crazy hard work. The 3LBB method is way easier, it's just 1 attack at 1-6 damage vs heroic-types (or yeah 4 attacks at 1-6 damage vs normal-types which you wouldn't expect to see all that often).

Or are you after something even more abstract than the 3LBB method?

[talysman]

I avoid multiple attack rolls whenever possible. Few creatures can attack more than one opponent. Basically, only things with more than one head, or an automatic tail attack against anything behind the creature... things like that. Fighters can kill multiple opponents, but I think I've decided to use something like that automatic kill roll gronan described.

That leaves creatures with multiple attack methods, the infamous claw/claw/bite, or creatures with four arms. I figure those monsters still only have one attack roll, but get +1 to the roll per arm, per claw, or whatever. Basically, they attack as a creature with more hit dice. That gives players some tactical decisions. Kill the thark quickly, or try chopping off its arms first to reduce its attack ability?

[Scott Anderson]

Machfront, have you considered rolling henchmen Attack and defense into the PC's rolls? Ablative henchmen work well for us.

[Deleted]

I am having the same feeling. Still considering to use Chainmail to resolve combat, but not sure if it will work because don't want to use the man-to-man and will resolve everything with mass combat procedures.

[kesher]

"Ablative henchmen": Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner for Phrase of the Day!

[Stormcrow]

You don't need to worry about what "edition" you're playing. Just play D&D.

[Porphyre]

One attack roll, if a hit is scored, roll every damage dice at once (for gargoyles 1d3, 1d3, 1d6 and 1d4) .
Keep the better damage score.

[Scott Anderson]

Ablative henchman:

Henchman who are in the same instance of skirmish with a PC are assigned to a single PC.

That PC gains +1 AC per henchman so assigned. Henchmen can be targeted individually.

Those henchmen do not roll their own attacks. The assigned PC makes his attack roll. If he hits, add +2 damage per henchman assigned to him.

Henchmen without a PC use their own skirmish scores. Henchmen in volley fire without a PC will not fire on skirmish for fear of hitting their bosses.

[waysoftheearth]

Mar 27, 2015 15:59:50 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

One attack roll, if a hit is scored, roll every damage dice at once (for gargoyles 1d3, 1d3, 1d6 and 1d4).

That's a great idea

Maybe even combine them: 1d3, 1d3, 1d6 and 1d4 is a total of 4-16 hp damage (in d8 HD terms), or about 3-12 hp damage in d6 HD terms (because 4.5/3.5 = 1.29). Or call it 2-12 in terms of 3LBB normal (1-6 hp) hits.

[jeffb]

Dungeon World has really spoiled me in this regard. Since the Dungeon World adventure I was running ended, I have run a couple sessions of more standard D&D games...one of exemplars and eidolons playtest session , and a 5e session and it was frustrating going back to D&D style rounds and initiative.

[ragnorakk]

Seems to me that I remember reading someone with math smarts (aka not me) talking about how multiple rolls can be considered to be equal to static bonuses (like the 5e advantage mechanic translating to a +3 or +4 bonus or somesuch). So maybe one roll with a bonus equal to the # of ignored attacks? Then the question of damage...

But, yeah. Attack routines (outside of AD&D segment breakdowns maybe) are kinda a drag.

[waysoftheearth]

Mar 27, 2015 17:30:08 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Dungeon World has really spoiled me in this regard.

Can you explain (in brief) how it works?

[jeffb]

describing Dungeon World is tough. Its easy to play, but...

There is no initiative. Players roll all the dice. Once in awhile DM rolls dice for damage if they want (I thought I would hate this, but it was great in play_)

EVERYTHING in Dungeon world is called a move--making a melee attack (Hack & Slash) , making a ranged attack (Volley), making a save (Defy Danger)....

In general moves work like this- roll 2d6+ modifier (DW uses Moldvay progression ability modifiers- so a Str of 18 is +3, 16-17 is +2, etc)

On a 10+ you succeed with no complication
On a 7-9 you succeed but there is a complication- you don't get everything you want...maybe you climb up the wall, but it takes twice as long...or you fall and dont get hurt, but some piece of equipment was smashed
6 or less you fail....


So quick example off the top of my head.

DM- Ok, so you round the corner and there are 3 Goblins in the corridor poking around for rats with their spears...

Player- Ok, I run at them with my 2H sword and cut into the closest one..

DM- ok that sounds like the Hack & slash" move...roll it...

player- I got a 8...and (rolls) I did 5 damage

DM- Ok you hit for 5 damage, but you overextended yourself got a little off balance and now hes pulled his poison needle and is trying to stab you in the neck...what do you do?

Player- crap...I try to block his thrust with my forearm...

DM- ok defy danger using dex...

Player- rolls 2d6+dex....11!

DM- ok you not only block his thrust but you hit so hard he dropped the poison needle....now what do you do?

Player- Hack & Slash his ass... rolls....ughh....6....

DM- oh man, he ducks under your swing and goes through your legs...he knows better than to mess with a big burly fighter-...hes charging the princess behind you...now what?

(or I could have as DM decided to inflict damage, or some other "hard" move/consequence.

Best thing is to check it out- its free...

acodispo.github.io/Dungeon-World-HTML-SRD/#

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2015 18:30:33 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Can you explain (in brief) how it works?

DungeonWorld combat works like the Dungeon! boardgame. Make one roll and either you hit or you take damage. Except in DungeonWorld what you're attacking makes no difference. It's as easy to hit a naked goblin as a dragon.

As far as the OP goes, I can't think of a downside to just replacing the attack routine with a single attack with higher damage.

[sepulchre]

Porphyre wrote:

One attack roll, if a hit is scored, roll every damage dice at once (for gargoyles 1d3, 1d3, 1d6 and 1d4) .
Keep the better damage score.

Nice, this was my first thought as well.

Possible adaptions for attack routine:

Add +1 'to hit' for each additional aspect of the routine, +3 'to hit' for the gargoyle.

Adjust the hit dice to reflect the routine.

[machfront]

Porphyre Yours is just the sort of thing I was grasping at. I was also wondering (prior to my OP) if something such as that may throw things back in the favor of the PCs. That is, since variable hit dice and variable damage go alone with monsters' multiple attacks. I didn't want to just jump right in without due consideration, thinking I'd just (for example) roll a single d8 instead of a few attacks at 1-3/1-3/1-4 or some such without realizing if it made the monsters too weak in light of PCs own Greyhawk (and onward) boost.
This was why I was wondering if anyone had already done so and what they may have learned already.

Adding a bonus to hit as well as the highest damage (sepulchre's change noted above) may be the ticket.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2015 22:29:16 GMT -6 machfront said:

That is, since variable hit dice and variable damage go alone with monsters' multiple attacks.

I see those three things as being completely independent.

You can calculate the average damage per round for the attack routine and then replace it with a single attack with the same average damage. The only time this won't work are with things like ghouls or carrion crawlers where each attack has a special ability.

So a gargoyle's 1-6/1-4/1-3/1-3 will average 8 hit points of damage so it's equivalent to 2d6+1. (I give them 2d8 which is one point higher).


The only thing these attack routines add to the game is time.

[Scott Anderson]

Mar 28, 2015 6:55:45 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

Mar 27, 2015 22:29:16 GMT -6 machfront said:

That is, since variable hit dice and variable damage go alone with monsters' multiple attacks.

I see those three things as being completely independent.

You can calculate the average damage per round for the attack routine and then replace it with a single attack with the same average damage. The only time this won't work are with things like ghouls or carrion crawlers where each attack has a special ability.

So a gargoyle's 1-6/1-4/1-3/1-3 will average 8 hit points of damage so it's equivalent to 2d6+1. (I give them 2d8 which is one point higher).


The only thing these attack routines add to the game is time.

What is this "2d8" you speak of?

[xerxez]

Mar 27, 2015 13:22:15 GMT -6 @mmoreno80 said:

I am having the same feeling. Still considering to use Chainmail to resolve combat, but not sure if it will work because don't want to use the man-to-man and will resolve everything with mass combat procedures.

I am seriously thinking of running a Chainmail roleplaying campaign in which I use all the tables for the appropriate types of warfare.

I have for some time wanted to run a miniatures based sort-of-D&D campaign with crafted models of encounter areas that are the focus of each session.

My thought was to use M2M skirmish rules but instead of an instant kill having a hitpoint system where a hit does a point of damage, a six sider, or maybe even port in attributes and add strength and magic adjustments to the one point damage system.

I agree completely--especially at higher levels D&D combat can get very staid.

A friend and I are also creating a new system that will feature a narrative combat system, I have written about the magic system and a little about the warfare mechanics at my blog, please read and comment if you have thoughts on such a system.

[Zenopus]

Mar 28, 2015 7:32:23 GMT -6 Scott Anderson said:

Mar 28, 2015 6:55:45 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

I see those three things as being completely independent.

You can calculate the average damage per round for the attack routine and then replace it with a single attack with the same average damage. The only time this won't work are with things like ghouls or carrion crawlers where each attack has a special ability.

So a gargoyle's 1-6/1-4/1-3/1-3 will average 8 hit points of damage so it's equivalent to 2d6+1. (I give them 2d8 which is one point higher).


The only thing these attack routines add to the game is time.

What is this "2d8" you speak of?

Many of the creatures with multiple attack routines are larger than man-size, and some DMs allow the attacks to target different individuals, which spreads the damage around among characters. 2d6+1 on one character is going to be different than four smaller amounts of damage on different characters.

[tetramorph]

Here is something I do, guys. Let me know what you think. If I am still "legit"!  ;)

For example, I give demons multiple attacks in my campaign. Highest levels up to 5 different attacks.

I would roll one "to hit" roll. Then I would check against marching order (from nearest to furthest from creature) to see who got attacked and compare the monster's single "to hit" roll against the first 5's AC. Let's say the creature affectively hits 3 of the 5 targeted. I would then roll 3d6 and assign damage down the line. "His wing knocks you to the wall taking 2 dmg," "His tail spring through the first ranks and barbs you, taking 6 dmg," "His claw pulls you down taking a point of dmg," something like that.

When multiple 1-or<1-HD-wonders attack, I often group them together just to give them a fighting chance against fairly well lvl-ed up parties.

So I would, say, group 4 goblins together and let them roll as a 4 HD creature. I would then follow the above description for which four nearest the clump-of-goblins took hit-attempts and, based upon one "to hit" roll for the clump, and the four respective ACs of the closest PCs, determine who took dmg. Then I would roll #d6s for respective dmg. As the goblins begin to drop like the flies they are, they can no longer fight at 4hd, but 3, then 2, then 1, etc. But it does make them a bit scarier to deal with at first.

So that's how I do it. Thoughts?

[Red Baron]

Mar 28, 2015 9:36:52 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

So that's how I do it. Thoughts?

What happens when the player character(s) run in to 200 goblins?

[TheObligatorySQL]

Something I did once was have the monster make one attack roll. If the roll hit the target and beat it be a certain amount (let's say by 5), then I rolled an extra damage die, up to the max number of attacks the creature had. I was playing with d6 damage, by the way.

Might not be the prettiest thing, but it worked for me

[tetramorph]

Mar 28, 2015 13:31:40 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

Mar 28, 2015 9:36:52 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

So that's how I do it. Thoughts?

What happens when the player character(s) run in to 200 goblins?

I would group them in meaningful units comparable to PC HD. So, e.g., if I have a PC in the party who is, say, lvl 8, I might bring the goblins in in waves of 8 per rank, etc.

[machfront]

Mar 28, 2015 13:31:40 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

Mar 28, 2015 9:36:52 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

So that's how I do it. Thoughts?

What happens when the player character(s) run in to 200 goblins?