Thief Attack and Saves

[Fearghus]

In Greyhawk it is stated that the thief fights as a cleric in the alternative combat system. They increase in steps every 4 levels. That makes sense.

With regard to saving throws, the thief is treated as a magic-user. Does that mean they follow the magic user save adjustments every 4 levels, or every five levels? I was interpreting it as the same saves as a magic-user, but applied at 1-4, 5-8, etc.

[talysman]

Should be every five. They advance twice as fast as an m-u, so they don't need the boost.

[waysoftheearth]

It's true that thieves advance more quickly at the lowest levels, but it's not really fair to say they advance "twice as fast" as M-Us.

Assuming they earn exactly the same XP at the same rate, then:

The GH thief will be one level ahead of the M-U up until 6th level; thereafter the GH thief will be one level ahead of the M-U only about one-third of the time. The two classes get close to equality at 9th level where the GH thief requires 90k XP, and the M-U requires 100k XP.

Likewise, the GH thief will be one level ahead of the Cleric only about one-fifth of the time up to 7th level; two-fifths of the time during the 8th level; and at 9th level the GH thief will briefly (between 90,000 and 100,000 XP) be two levels ahead of the cleric.

[Fearghus]

Saves are every 5th level. Thanks to the both of you.

[Zenopus]

FWIW, if you are looking for another option in Basic Holmes gave Thieves the same saves as Fighters. Coupled with fast advancement this will give them the best saves for humans.

This may have been unintentional, since the note in Greyhawk is fairly hidden at the beginning of the Alternative Combat section, and Gygax may have also overlooked the change when correcting.

[Fearghus]

Mar 21, 2015 9:20:43 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

FWIW, if you are looking for another option in Basic Holmes gave Thieves the same saves as Fighters. Coupled with fast advancement this will give them the best saves for humans.

This may have been unintentional, since the note in Greyhawk is fairly hidden at the beginning of the Alternative Combat section, and Gygax may have also overlooked the change when correcting.

By fighter saves, you mean follow the 1-3, 4-6, 7-9 progression just as a fighter with the same scores? Or every 4 levels as a cleric, but with fighter saves?

[Zenopus]

Mar 21, 2015 9:27:39 GMT -6 Fearghus said:

Mar 21, 2015 9:20:43 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

FWIW, if you are looking for another option in Basic Holmes gave Thieves the same saves as Fighters. Coupled with fast advancement this will give them the best saves for humans.

This may have been unintentional, since the note in Greyhawk is fairly hidden at the beginning of the Alternative Combat section, and Gygax may have also overlooked the change when correcting.

By fighter saves, you mean follow the 1-3, 4-6, 7-9 progression just as a fighter with the same scores? Or every 4 levels as a cleric, but with fighter saves?

Holmes doesn't specify as the Basic table only shows levels 1-3 for all of the classes. But since thieves are shown on the same line as Fighters I think it implies they will always have the same saves.

Interestingly in the Sample Dungeon the 4th level MU gets a +1 on saves, which doesn't match the Men & Magic table.

[Fearghus]

Thank you for the tip. I would like to get my hands on Holmes. I only have the Blueholme prentice PDF.

[Scott Anderson]

Thieves ought to get the best saves IMO in a game where demi-men can't be thieves. In a game where they can be thieves, their natural save advantage would be sufficient.

[Finarvyn]

FYI, the "Gary Gygax Greyhawk" section is for the Greyhawk campaign, not the "Suplement I Greyhawk" book. I'll move this to the "Men & Magic" section, which is where we discuss character generation and such.