Spell Acquisition The OD&D Way

[seandon4]

Strictly by the book, in LBBs (or possibly Greyhawk), how does a spell caster learn/add more spells to his spell book?

Say a magic user finds an enemy spell book. 

Does it require magical research at a cost of 2,000 gp per spell level to copy (scribe) a single spell to his book (assuming he has the smarts to learn it)?

Does it make any difference that the MU has source material to go off off (the enemy's book), as opposed to magical research from scratch (inventing a new spell)?

Are there any quotes from Gary or source material that indicates copying from an enemy spell book or scroll would be less expensive or free?

OD&D doesn't seem to have the "free spell" upon leveling up that other editions do.

Saw this
  www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=10004&p=163864&hilit=spell+book#p163864

Otherwise, it seems somewhat undefined.

Thank you in advance.

[geoffrey]

My understanding of the 1974 rules all by themselves is that a magic-user has ALL of the spells in his spell books. He needn't go looking for any.

[Stormcrow]

Men & Magic implies—but doesn't come right out and say—that every magic-user has access to every spell on the lists in the book. When a magic-user researches a new spell, he has the option to tell others of the spell, allowing them to use it as well. Once it's in circulation, every magic-user will have access to it.

To my knowledge, the word copy does not occur in the text of the original D&D rules, except in copyright. The rules do not mention acquiring spells from scrolls. I'm not sure if any of the supplements do, but it seems that the idea of copying spells from scrolls is an Advanced D&D idea. In original D&D, scrolls are simply spell-casting devices.

Although it doesn't say so, I would assume that a magic-user with access to another's spell book, containing a spell he doesn't know, would be able to learn and copy the spell into his own book, without research.

[Stormcrow]

P.S.: If you use the intelligence table in Greyhawk, you first roll to see which spells on the lists you know. Likewise with spells you find in books. AD&D included a specific procedure for using this table.

[talysman]

The rules don't say how M-Us acquire spells, although the spell research rules mention an M-U can keep a spell secret or make it available to other M-Us, which implies that you can acquire new spells that you find.

Some people may think of that as a serious omission, but I think it's a feature. You're supposed to decide how easy or difficult it is to get new spells.

The last page of M&M says that M-Us are assumed to acquire spell books, one for each spell level, and lists a cost for replacements or duplicates. Some people interpret that as meaning M-Us know all the listed spells automatically. I used to interpret it as just the 1st level spell list being automatic. It's also possible to interpret it as "spell books are available on the open market, you start with a 1st level spell book for free and can buy others. Standard spell books contain all the spells in the standard list."

Now, I tend to interpret it as "Any spell you research or use Read Magic on, you know. Spell books are a necessary tool to preparing spells, but don't necessarily contain spells. The spells are in your head." Learning spells is pretty easy, if you can find a written source, and it's free if you have Read Magic. Otherwise, it'll cost you, though not as much as researching a totally new spell. I'd charge the same as the cost to make a scroll.

[seandon4]

Thanks for all the prompt replies!

[scottyg]

I know Ernie told me a story of the first adventure of one of his M-U PCs, in the Greyhawk dungeons, and he started with just one spell, read magic. I think this was Erac, or Erac's Cousin. I don't remember the whole story, but he ended up alone and naked in the castle yard.

[chicagowiz]

Mar 1, 2015 7:25:53 GMT -6 scottyg said:

I know Ernie told me a story of the first adventure of one of his M-U PCs, in the Greyhawk dungeons, and he started with just one spell, read magic. I think this was Erac, or Erac's Cousin. I don't remember the whole story, but he ended up alone and naked in the castle yard.

Which is, of course, the more important part of the story!

[tetramorph]

Casting raise on this one:

Do any of you have the MU buy a blank book and "discover" the spells as he goes?

I mean, he could "burn" a scroll through "normal" use, or use "read magic" to burn up the scroll but copy it into his book for later and continued use.

This way, past say the first level of spells, finding scrolls becomes super important, really, the only way to gain higher spells without research or begging them from another wizard or copying them from an ally.

[Deleted]

That's what I'm doing from now on. I want to make spells rare and valuable.

[LouGoncey]

Always did it as you get READ MAGIC and randomly determine another spell -- the rest you find, research, bargain, or quest for...

[foxroe]

If you're using Greyhawk (as mentioned above), there is the intelligence table on page 8 for determining known spells and minimum/maximum number of spells. This implies that you would not start with the whole shebang (entire 1st level list). Instead, you would roll dice for each spell in the list to see if you know it (and by extension, have it available in your spell book), and stop checking once you reach your maximum. If you reach the end of the list and you haven't met your minimum, cycle back through the list until you do. When you reach a level that grants the next level of spells, do this again for the new list. After that, your magic-user will need to break out the check book gold coffer...

Note that this is just my opinion. As is continually iterated in these parts, the beauty of the game is that there is always room for injecting your own ideas and interpretations.

[Starbeard]

Oct 15, 2016 0:50:06 GMT -6 LouGoncey said:

Always did it as you get READ MAGIC and randomly determine another spell -- the rest you find, research, bargain, or quest for...

Does anyone know where this began? That's the ruling by the book in BECMI (although I think technically the DM is also given the right to pick both spells, or force both spells to be rolled). I'm assuming it's the same in B/X, but I haven't checked in a while. Did the "Read Magic + 1 random spell" method ever show up before this, in a Dragon article maybe? Or perhaps was it a bit like critical hits and ThAC0, a pervasive house rule that travelled largely by word of mouth and eventually just got baked into the game?

[Finarvyn]

I like to assume that spells in Men & Magic are common enough that any wizard can access them as needed, but spells from Greyhawk (or other sources) are more obscure and harder to find. This doesn't mean that my NPC's can't use them, only that they are harder for players to acquire.

[aldarron]

The idea of copying a scroll into a spellbook was not, I'm sure, intended or even thought of when the OD&D rules were penned. Scrolls were intentionally one off casting devices, not a reference text. To acquire new spells, I require MU's to research or purchase from another mage via their spell book, or "find" another Mu's spell book. This way, they have a strong motivation to explore the ruins of wizards towers, etc.

[Stormcrow]

Oct 15, 2016 9:19:32 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

I'm assuming it's the same in B/X

Spell acquisition in B/X is a little different than others. There, your spell book always contains a number of spells and levels exactly equal to how many spells and levels you can cast. A Medium has exactly one 1st level spell in his book. A Sorcerer has three 1st level spells, two 2nd level, two 3rd level, and one 4th level spell. You can't copy spells from scrolls. You get one new spell every time you go up in level, and this can either come from your master (an existing spell) or you can research a new one yourself.

Since you can't copy spells from scrolls, Read Magic is not needed to grow your spell list, so you're not required to take it first. Its usefulness is in being able to cast spells from scrolls and to read other magical writing you discover on an adventure.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2016 9:43:55 GMT -6 aldarron said:

The idea of copying a scroll into a spellbook was not, I'm sure, intended or even thought of when the OD&D rules were penned.

Yes it was, based on actual play pre-publication.

[aldarron]

Oct 15, 2016 11:12:18 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Oct 15, 2016 9:43:55 GMT -6 aldarron said:

The idea of copying a scroll into a spellbook was not, I'm sure, intended or even thought of when the OD&D rules were penned.

Yes it was, based on actual play pre-publication.

Michael, I've never seen anything like that but would happily acquiesce if you could provide a reference. What I mean is, by "actual play pre-publication", do you mean that you remember playing that way in 1973, or do you mean there is a pre-publication document that supports copying spell scrolls into spellbooks?

All the (fairly meagre) language in the 3lbb's discusses scrolls as casting devices. The only reference I know of to copying scrolls at all is in Dalluhn "If a copy of a cursed scroll is made it will have double effect, but as soon as one is read the other will vaporize." (Book 1, p14) That's a reference to copying scroll to scroll, (not scroll to spellbook) and indicates doing so links the spells. It's not clear you could copy "regular" spell scrolls at all, but if you could they might reasonably presumed to be linked also, and vaporize when cast. In any case this rule doesn't appear in the 3lbb's and I'd guess the reason is that it is really unclear how you could copy a cursed scroll without reading it and being subject to the curse. Maybe a duplication spell...

[Stormcrow]

He means that's how the games he played pre-publication worked: spells could be copied from scrolls into spell books.

That detail simply didn't make it into the text of the original game, like a lot of other things.

[Zenopus]

Oct 15, 2016 9:19:32 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

Oct 15, 2016 0:50:06 GMT -6 LouGoncey said:

Always did it as you get READ MAGIC and randomly determine another spell -- the rest you find, research, bargain, or quest for...

Does anyone know where this began? That's the ruling by the book in BECMI (although I think technically the DM is also given the right to pick both spells, or force both spells to be rolled). I'm assuming it's the same in B/X, but I haven't checked in a while. Did the "Read Magic + 1 random spell" method ever show up before this, in a Dragon article maybe? Or perhaps was it a bit like critical hits and ThAC0, a pervasive house rule that travelled largely by word of mouth and eventually just got baked into the game?

The automatic presence of Read Magic in the M-U's spell book is outlined in the 1E DMG (Aug 1979), pg 39, section ACQUISITION OF MAGIC-USER SPELLS in some great Gygaxian prose (complete with sample character name):

Returning to the recently-completed apprenticeship, let us now consider the spells given to Redouleent by his wise old master. Obviously, an apprentice must know how to read magic to be of use to his master. It is also an absolute must to anyone following the profession of magic-user, so that spell is AUTOMATICALLY on each magic-user character's list of known spells.

In addition, each M-U gets one random Offensive, Defensive and Miscellaneous Spell. Or chosen, at the DM's discretion.

The later BECMI version is presumably adapted from this.

This doesn't appear in any of the earlier rulebooks (OD&D or Holmes or PHB), but possibly appeared somewhere else such as Dragon.

[Deleted]

Oct 16, 2016 8:52:40 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

He means that's how the games he played pre-publication worked: spells could be copied from scrolls into spell books.

Ding! Winner!

We could look through the Dalhun manuscript to see if it's there, I don't remember. But we did play it that way pre-publication. Aldarron, sorry, my wording was ambiguous. I meant "that is the game as how she was played, not necessarily what got writ down."

[flightcommander]

I know this is an OD&D question, but the 1E DMG has a very interesting section on Magic User spell acquisition that is useful for, if nothing else, an example of how it might all work.

[talysman]

Oct 16, 2016 9:14:42 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

The automatic presence of Read Magic in the M-U's spell book is outlined in the 1E DMG (Aug 1979), pg 39, section ACQUISITION OF MAGIC-USER SPELLS in some great Gygaxian prose (complete with sample character name):

Returning to the recently-completed apprenticeship, let us now consider the spells given to Redouleent by his wise old master. Obviously, an apprentice must know how to read magic to be of use to his master. It is also an absolute must to anyone following the profession of magic-user, so that spell is AUTOMATICALLY on each magic-user character's list of known spells.

In addition, each M-U gets one random Offensive, Defensive and Miscellaneous Spell. Or chosen, at the DM's discretion.

The later BECMI version is presumably adapted from this.

This doesn't appear in any of the earlier rulebooks (OD&D or Holmes or PHB), but possibly appeared somewhere else such as Dragon.

Indeed. To be specific, Holmes and the PHB include the Greyhawk minimum/maximum spells known table, but Holmes explains how to use it better. The method for determining initial spells known, then, is to roll the "chance to know" for each spell on the 1st level spells list. But that's a clunky way to handle it, so the DMG introduced the "Read Magic + 3 spells" rule, and only rolls "chance to know" for additional spells as they are discovered.

I've been thinking of using a much simpler method: use the numbered spell lists in Men & Magic (or the PHB) and roll 1 die to determine the first spell. The player automatically gets the five spells that follow it on the list as well. Then roll 2d20 and look up each die on the the list:

1. if the result is one of the six spells already selected, drop it from the player's initial spell list;
2. if the result is a spell not already known, add it to the initial spell list;
3. if the result is higher than the number of spells listed, don't add a spell for that roll.

Thus, the player gets 4 to 8 starting spells. If Read Magic is a must-have the way you run magic, add Read Magic. I handle it differently, so no one gets Read Magic automatically.

Instead of a sequence of six spells determined by the first roll, you could use the minimum number of spells based on Intelligence, and roll a number of d20s equal to half the minimum. I don't want Intelligence to affect spells known that way, so I wouldn't do it personally.

[flightcommander]

Well, this is embarrassing. I posted a reference to 1E DMG coverage of this topic days after Zenopus did — as if I hadn't even seen his post. Bad on me, good on Zenopus! In my defense, great minds think alike etc.

[simrion]

Feb 28, 2015 14:19:47 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

Men & Magic implies—but doesn't come right out and say—that every magic-user has access to every spell on the lists in the book.

This...on page 34 of my copy of Men and Magic is a blurb at the bottom

BOOKS OF SPELLS - Characters who employ spells are assumed to acquire books containing the spells they can use, one book for each level. There is also a description of the costs for a duplicate or replacement set. I read this as as each spell casting character reaches the level or ability to cast the next level of spells they are assumed to acquire a book (prayer book) with all the available spells outlined in Men and Magic for that level.

[talysman]

Oct 27, 2016 17:31:38 GMT -6 simrion said:

Feb 28, 2015 14:19:47 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

Men & Magic implies—but doesn't come right out and say—that every magic-user has access to every spell on the lists in the book.

This...on page 34 of my copy of Men and Magic is a blurb at the bottom

BOOKS OF SPELLS - Characters who employ spells are assumed to acquire books containing the spells they can use, one book for each level. There is also a description of the costs for a duplicate or replacement set. I read this as as each spell casting character reaches the level or ability to cast the next level of spells they are assumed to acquire a book (prayer book) with all the available spells outlined in Men and Magic for that level.

Yes, but it can be interpreted in more than one way, as I mentioned upthread:

Feb 28, 2015 14:33:55 GMT -6 talysman said:

The last page of M&M says that M-Us are assumed to acquire spell books, one for each spell level, and lists a cost for replacements or duplicates. Some people interpret that as meaning M-Us know all the listed spells automatically. I used to interpret it as just the 1st level spell list being automatic. It's also possible to interpret it as "spell books are available on the open market, you start with a 1st level spell book for free and can buy others. Standard spell books contain all the spells in the standard list."

The key being: does "are assumed to acquire books" mean that they receive these books for free, automatically? Or does it mean that M-U spell-casting ability assumes that they have a spellbook for each spell level known, and not having such books changes how many spells the M-U can cast?

Also, there is nothing in that paragraph that states how many of the spells on the M&M lists are in each spell book. It could be all spells other than custom spells, or all the original spells but not the Greyhawk spells, or all 1st level but not all higher level spells, or some other arrangement.

I decided long ago that this vagueness was intentional. You are supposed to decide how magic works and tailor the acquisition and contents of spellbooks to match your magical model. The model I decided on was that spellbooks are like goetic magic grimoires, full of charts and tables for designing rituals to "charge" spells. The rituals change based on astrological calculations, which is why spellbooks are needed to prep spells. The spells themselves, though, are always in the magician's head, once they are learned. Magicians can research new spells, study notes written by another magician, or use Read Magic as a shortcut to learn a spell from a scroll without research. So, none of my spellbooks contain every spell, and spells must be acquired, but it's fairly easy to acquire new spells.

[tetramorph]

I think what is holding me back from my ideal: folks find spells through exploration, research, or beneficial contacts, is the issue of time.

Playing only once a month, the MUs in my campaign would simply never have spells.

I fear I would have trouble figuring out how to balance NPC MUs so that they didn't come in and firepower them straight into TPK.

I realize that is my problem, not my players.

But it is some of what I think about when I try to imagine running things this "ideal" way.

[Stormcrow]

Oct 27, 2016 20:32:40 GMT -6 talysman said:

I decided long ago that this vagueness was intentional. You are supposed to decide how magic works and tailor the acquisition and contents of spellbooks to match your magical model.

I don't think the wording was deliberately vague; I think Gary just wasn't interested in... ahem... spelling things out for the reader. "Y'get the idea? Good!" The details weren't the point; informing miniatures wargamers of a new kind of game was.

[talysman]

Oct 28, 2016 13:11:10 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

Oct 27, 2016 20:32:40 GMT -6 talysman said:

I decided long ago that this vagueness was intentional. You are supposed to decide how magic works and tailor the acquisition and contents of spellbooks to match your magical model.

I don't think the wording was deliberately vague; I think Gary just wasn't interested in... ahem... spelling things out for the reader. "Y'get the idea? Good!" The details weren't the point; informing miniatures wargamers of a new kind of game was.

I suppose you could see it that way, but since there are several well-known quotes about people wanting TSR to do their imagining for them, I think there's a strong possibility Gygax didn't want to work out every detail, at least at this point. He does work out details in AD&D, but you gotta wonder if part of the reason was exasperation. "Oh, you guys want more details on how magic works? Well, here's how many pages a spell takes up in a spell book, and the cost of ink and paper, and a random table of starting spells..."