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Post by geoffrey on Feb 15, 2015 21:27:32 GMT -6
What are some good ways to assign magic items to human NPCs in a dungeon?
Of course, there are various sorts of men that can be encountered in a dungeon: fighting-men, magic-users, clerics, anti-clerics, bandits, berserkers, etc.
Here are some options:
1. For the men-types described on pp. 5-7 of Monsters & Treasure there is the method on page 5 of M&T. A weakness of this is that it does not ever generate potions or scrolls.
2. For the men-types described on pp. 5-7 of Monsters & Treasure there is also the method on page 66 of the AD&D Monster Manual.
3. There is also the method on pp. 175-176 of the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide.
4. There is also the method on pp. 226-227 of the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of the above various methods? What are some additional methods?
We have to remember that the magic items owned by NPCs will be used by them against the PCs, and that the PCs will gain them if they get the upper hand over the NPCs.
If a dungeon has a lot of human encounters in it, does it make sense to not place magic items elsewhere in the dungeon? After all, the human encounters by themselves could make the dungeon quite heavy with magic items.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 15, 2015 23:00:30 GMT -6
I'm not familiar enough with the AD&D methods to comment on those, but a "perceived weakness" of the OD&D method given on p5-7 of M&T might be that it skews the frequencies with which magic items occur on the main treasure tables. In particular clerical weaponry will occur more frequently (even considering the footnote that says to ignore edged miscellaneous weapons), and only magic-users will ever possess miscellaneous magic items. It also seems to me that higher level figures will end up with "too few" magic items compared to typical play. None of these things are The End of the World. But I agree with the OP that it's interesting to ponder how else it might be done. To that end I described an alternate method for assigning magical items a while back; it was based on the numbers of XP necessary to attain experience levels and the amount of treasure required to attain those XP. I used it to load out a bunch of higher level PCs for a convention game, but it could also be used for NPCs. Some members here weren't particularly convinced about it but for all that I still reckon there's an iota of merit in there somewhere. See the discussion on these boards here: odd74.proboards.com/thread/10188/magic-items-pc-level Which links to my original post here: forum.immersiveink.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=401 |
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Post by Porphyre on Feb 16, 2015 7:20:40 GMT -6
What about using the probabilities from Treasure type A ?
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 16, 2015 12:29:38 GMT -6
the method on pp. 175-176 of the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide. This is the one I'm most inclined to use, but I could easily change my mind. Assuming a dungeon with a lot of human encounters, the DM might not need to place any further magic items in the dungeon other than the ones possessed by the NPCs. Those items alone would make the dungeon well-stocked with magic items! |
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Post by Scott Anderson on Feb 16, 2015 13:32:57 GMT -6
Throw 2d6 for each kind of treasure and each kind of item. If the number thrown is less than or equal to their level, they have that kind of item. Then generate the item normally. Money is ten times their level in that type of coin. Time consuming. Probably want to generate one of each level prior to table time. But fair.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 14:04:28 GMT -6
Simple.
Don't do it randomly.
Crom's hairy nutsack, the random tables are only for when you can't come up with a good idea, not for populating the entire dungeon. Most of the 16 levels of Ram's Horn Dungeon were done without using random results at all.
Just bloody decide. You're the referee. That's what being the referee MEANS.
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 16, 2015 14:41:00 GMT -6
Michael, you're exactly the sort of person who can help me with my problem, which is that I have hardly used magic items at all for a great many years. I am very out of practice with them. I seek to avoid these two extremes:
1. Giving the NPCs too few magic items, which results in them being push-overs for the PCs. For example, if a PC party gains an average of 3 magic items per encounter with NPCs, on their 11th such encounter the PCs will have 30 magic items to use against an NPC party that has 3 magic items.
2. Giving the NPCs too many magic items, which can result in the PCs running around with 100 or more magic items--veritable Christmas trees.
I'm trying to get a handle on a happy medium that results in the PCs neither machine-gunning NPCs nor walking around like mobile magic item emporia.
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Post by derv on Feb 16, 2015 16:17:02 GMT -6
I have to admit to not really having a set method for determining frequency of magic items. I prefer less and an atmosphere of rarity, so I do not use the generation tables for them, but I'd be inclined to use M&T's for this if I did. I'd probably be considered miserly by most. It's a hard knock life.
That being said, if you're more generous then myself, I can see your point in not wanting either of the two situations occurring. My answer would not be to give NPC's more magic items. I would still keep them few. If they're intended as an encounter, I would instead raise the challenge by giving the NPC's the benefit of numbers to put the odds in their favor. The guidelines under Bandits seems reasonable to me.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 16, 2015 16:27:08 GMT -6
Simple. Don't do it randomly. Crom's hairy nutsack, the random tables are only for when you can't come up with a good idea, not for populating the entire dungeon. Most of the 16 levels of Ram's Horn Dungeon were done without using random results at all. Just bloody decide. You're the referee. That's what being the referee MEANS. Anyone can deceide anything, sure, but that doesn't make it illegitimate to use the provided tables. Some of us might even be interested in using the provided tables just to see what they do. 1. Giving the NPCs too few magic items, which results in them being push-overs for the PCs. For example, if a PC party gains an average of 3 magic items per encounter with NPCs, on their 11th such encounter the PCs will have 30 magic items to use against an NPC party that has 3 magic items. I don't think this scenario will genuinely be true Geoffry. It seems to assume that: 1. The group of PCs will all survive the first ten encounters, 2. The group of PCs will continue to work together throughout the first ten encounters, 3. All of the magic items recovered are usable, 4. Magic items will never be lost or consumed. It's probable that some PCs will die or retire or be captured or lost before they survive ten ecounters. Their loot won't automatically fall into the hands of the other players. Magiacal potions, scrolls, arrows, and wands are all likely to be consumed. There will be cursed items, chaotic swords, items restricted to specific types, and duplicate items that can't immediately be used. 2. Giving the NPCs too many magic items, which can result in the PCs running around with 100 or more magic items--veritable Christmas trees. Even if the players did acquire 100 magic items there's a limit to how much gear an individual can physcially carry and use. A fighter can only wear one set of armour and weild one sword. A magic-user can only wear one ring on each hand and employ one staff. Besides... all the world's dragons and wizards and armies and thieves would be attracted to such a mythical hoard like flies to a pile of dung  |
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Post by tetramorph on Feb 16, 2015 16:27:52 GMT -6
I am fairly generous with low-lvl magic items. So, a fair amount of scrolls and potions are floating around. I'm becoming increasingly stingy with the high-powered ones. I'm even considering checking them off once rolled. Each item is unique so, in a given campaign, they can only show up once each.
For NPCs, then, I would do something like this: lvl4+ random magic weapon (item if MU), lvl8+ same and also random magic armor (another item if MU), lvl 12+ same again and also a high-powered magic item.
Starting money would follow the same lines, 3d6 X100, 3d6 X1000, 3d6X10K, respectively. They can buy potions and scrolls pretty easily with that kind of geld. So, with an NPC, I would just imagine what they would want to spend that cash on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 16:39:57 GMT -6
Hmm. So far, my latest group of players are all 4th to 5th level.
Magic they've found includes 2 potions of healing (in separate places,) a +1 dagger, a +1 shield, and a set of +2 mail.
The party also bought enough magic weapons to have one magic weapon apiece, mostly +1. I put a few magic weapons in the trade caravans because they've reached the level where encounters with monsters that can only be hit with magic weapons are starting to get likely.
So, yeah, NOT a lot of magic in my game.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 16:44:49 GMT -6
Anyone can deceide anything, sure, but that doesn't make it illegitimate to use the provided tables. Some of us might even be interested in using the provided tables just to see what they do. Sure, and it might be interesting. But an experiment should be performed with knowledge of the situation; go ahead and use the tables for everything, but I just want you to understand that that was not the intent behind the tables. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 16, 2015 17:38:01 GMT -6
I like magic items to be "special" so tend to be a bit miserly with them. My Hinterlands game has been running about four years now with about a dozen players going at any one time; maybe 30 PCs overall.
From memory I think there have been three potions (polymorph, 2x poison!), a ward vs undead, a ring of jumping, a dagger (which was lost when then the PC died), a crystal ball, a staff with cure disease, some Elvish mail, and three magical swords; one chaotic and two neutral. The chaotic wight-blade couldn't be used by the players; one of the neutral swords is still with the bad guys; the other neutral sword is now with a 5th level PC fighter. There may have been a few other things I can't immediately recall, and certainly there were a few items the players "missed", but that's about it so far...
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 16, 2015 19:06:00 GMT -6
My answer would not be to give NPC's more magic items. I would still keep them few. If they're intended as an encounter, I would instead raise the challenge by giving the NPC's the benefit of numbers to put the odds in their favor. The guidelines under Bandits seems reasonable to me. Very good idea.  |
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 17, 2015 14:02:37 GMT -6
the method on pp. 175-176 of the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide. This is the one I'm most inclined to use, but I could easily change my mind. Assuming a dungeon with a lot of human encounters, the DM might not need to place any further magic items in the dungeon other than the ones possessed by the NPCs. Those items alone would make the dungeon well-stocked with magic items! I recently finished some calculations using this method. Let us assume a 13-level dungeon, and further let us assume that each level has a single NPC party conforming to this method. Using average die results, we come to a grand total of 265 magic items in the possession of these 13 NPC parties! Is that crazy? Or am I crazy? Or both? |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 17, 2015 15:45:34 GMT -6
265/13 = 20.4 items per party.
If there are, say, 6 figures per party, that makes for an average of 20.4/6 = 3.4 items per figure.
(Presumably these averages would be representative of the middle, 7th, dungeon level where 7th level figures are encountered? Presumably parties encountered of shallower levels would have fewer items?)
So of the 3.4 items allocated per 7th level figure, how many of them would be of the "consumable" sort?
How many would be cursed or otherwise "bad to have"?
How many would be unusable due to class or alignment restrictions?
How many would be of a duplicate type (i.e., a fighter won't get much use out of his dagger +1 if he also has a sword +2)
Right off the cuff it doesn't look *too* unlikley to me... but I guess the key assumptions are how many parties there will be, and how many members there will be in each party?
edit:
Another consideration might be that higher level types are likely to be accompanied by retainers (U&WA suggests that a wizard/priest will be accompanied by 1-4 apprentices and also 1-6 bodyguards). So a single wizard's tally of magic items might actually be distributed among up to 11 (or more!) figures.
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 17, 2015 16:15:34 GMT -6
Here are the results for each level of the hypothetical 13-level dungeon:
1st dungeon level: 3 1st-level NPCs with 6 0-level men-at-arms: 0.3 magic items
2nd: 4 2nd-level NPCs with 5 0-level men-at-arms: 1.6 magic items
3rd: 3 3rd-level NPCs with 6 0-level men-at-arms: 2.1 magic items
4th: 4 4th-level 4 NPCs with 5 1st-level henchmen: 4.5 magic items
5th: 3 8th-level NPCs with 6 5th-level henchmen: 19.2 magic items
6th: 4 9th-level NPCs with 5 6th-level henchmen: 30.6 magic items
7th: 3 8th-level NPCs with 6 5th-level henchmen: 19.2 magic items
8th: 4 9th-level NPCs with 5 6th-level henchmen: 30.6 magic items
9th: 3 9th-level NPCs with 6 6th-level henchmen: 28.8 magic items
10th: 4 10th-level NPCs with 5 6th-level henchmen: 33 magic items
11th: 3 10th-level NPCs with 6 6th-level henchmen: 30.6 magic items
12th: 4 11th-level NPCs with 5 7th-level henchmen: 24.8 magic items
13th: 3 12th-level NPCs with 6 8th-level henchmen: 40.2 magic items
Total: 265.5 magic items
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 17, 2015 16:36:27 GMT -6
It's interesting that the first four dungeon levels are really pretty frugal... the players need to get down to the fifth dungeon level before magic items begin to appear more commonly. It seems there will be an average of 9 figures per party, and on the 7th dungeon level those 9 figures will have and average of 19 items between them (or an average of 2.11 items each). I've recently written a script to handle treasure rolls automagically, so I just asked it for 19 magic items. Here's what I got: * Spellbook of 1st level Clerical Spells, * Potion of Plant Control, * 15 Bolts +1, * Ring of Protection, * Ring of 3 wishes, * Ward Against Undead, * Plate Armor & Shield +1, * Potion of Invulnerability, * Inanimate Frostbrand Sword +1, * Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals, * Potion of Poison, * Potion of Deception, * Wand of Phantasmal Forces (53 charges), * Talking Neutral Frostbrand Sword +1 speaks Storm Giant with Detect Gold, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Silver Dominance 24 Purposed to Slay All Dragons, * Inanimate Sword +1, +3 vs Golems, * Plate Armor +1, * Spear +2, * Potion of Polymorph, * Dagger +1, +2 vs Orcs & Gnolls. 9 of these 19 items are consumable, so a question might be whether the bolts, wand, ward, potions, and ring of wishes are already used or not? If not consumed the ring of wishes will make this party very tricky beat Fun! |
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Post by derv on Feb 17, 2015 17:45:33 GMT -6
Is that crazy? Or am I crazy? Or both? It honestly sounds crazy to me Why do your henchmen jump up in level so drastically? At level 5 of the dungeon, you have 4th level NPC's with 5th level henchmen  How are you determining the make up of the NPC parties? I gather this has some bearing on the overall results you're getting. Dungeon levels 5-7 seem out of place to me, but I don't know how you are generating them. As a seperate mention, in M&T there is a note under the treasure types table (p.22-23). It says "All treasure is found only in those cases where the encounter takes place in the Lair." Are we assuming this to be the case? |
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 17, 2015 18:06:54 GMT -6
Is that crazy? Or am I crazy? Or both? It honestly sounds crazy to me Why do your henchmen jump up in level so drastically? At level 5 of the dungeon, you have 4th level NPC's with 5th level henchmen How are you determining the make up of the NPC parties? I gather this has some bearing on the overall results you're getting. Dungeon levels 5-7 seem out of place to me, but I don't know how you are generating them. As a seperate mention, in M&T there is a note under the treasure types table (p.22-23). It says "All treasure is found only in those cases where the encounter takes place in the Lair." Are we assuming this to be the case? The henchmen thing was a typo. I looked at my hand-written paper, and it's correct there. I've fixed my post. I'm using pp. 175-176 of the DMG to determine these hypothetical parties. Those pages indicate that a party will have 9 members: 2-5 regular members and the rest henchmen (or men-at-arms for 3rd and lower level parties). I used average die results in each case. Here is why there is a big jump between the 4th dungeon level and the 5th dungeon level: Character level is equal to dungeon level for the first 4 levels. On lower dungeon levels it is between 7th and 12th, determined by rolling 1d6 and adding 6 (with some fiddling that I'm too lazy to type). Thus the 5th level of the dungeon will have, on average, 8th-level characters. Perhaps I should simply use dungeon level = character level for all 13 levels. That would give a more natural distribution (and probably fewer magic items). As for their treasure, I'm simply using the magic item distributions on pp. 175-176 of the DMG. |
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Post by derv on Feb 17, 2015 19:01:06 GMT -6
ugh! geoffrey, you made me dig out my DMG. No easy task. I'm putting it back in it's hidden alcove now. Please do not ask me to pull it out again Okay, I see that Gary shifts how the party is made up once reaching level 4 of the dungeon. Well, if you're okay with the results, run with it. I think I would be tempted to cut the magic item results by half. But, your first 4 levels of results do not seem excessive to me (considering they're averages) IF that would be all that is present for those levels. Really, your levels 10-13 don't seem completely out of line either, considering the challenge and what a comparable PC might have at those levels. So, maybe dungeon level = character level (+/-2) might produce more acceptable averages. I'd still use Gary's 1/3 method for the henchmen though. |
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Post by cooper on Feb 17, 2015 19:44:09 GMT -6
There are so many awesome artifacts in the DMG that most of us will never ever see in a campaign that it really does seem miserly to fret over even such things as staffs of power and magi (which if you read Arneson's FFC, are simply wizard swords transmogrified into staffs with charges).
Since there is no means of recharging magic items in D&D (not an accident, limited charges limited wizards especially as Gygax details in the DMG) why not go wild?
Stinginess with magic items just lead players to want things like exceptional strength scores and at-will spells. Have any of you ever put a mask of jaree on a lich and tell a player it's theirs for the taking (if the can beat the lich...). Good stuff.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 17, 2015 21:34:26 GMT -6
I don't think we can assume the players are going to win everything encounter. And therefore we shouldn't assume that all the magic items carried by NPCs are going to end up in the players' hands.
The players are just as likely to loose a stand up fight as win it; especially if they are surprised. In that case the players may end up losing magic items on a dungeon level rather than gaining them.
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 17, 2015 22:07:37 GMT -6
The players are just as likely to loose a stand up fight as win it; especially if they are surprised. In that case the players may end up losing magic items on a dungeon level rather than gaining them. Excellent point. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 17, 2015 23:25:06 GMT -6
I don't think I've ever randomly rolled magic items for NPCs. I tend to assign them by gut feeling, moderated by my knowledge of what the player characters have in that game, and the fact that (in my experience) people will only keep the useful stuff around and find a way to trade the rest for something useful.
Not that I'm against the idea of random rolling, it's just that I keep magic items rare enough that it's no trouble to just assign them.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Feb 18, 2015 0:01:44 GMT -6
Note to self: assign treasure types to NPC types and list them in the Ref Companion for Treasure Hunters.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 18, 2015 2:33:47 GMT -6
I tend to assign them by gut feeling, moderated by my knowledge of what the player characters have in that game, and the fact that (in my experience) people will only keep the useful stuff around and find a way to trade the rest for something useful. I think this is close to what most of us do or have done at some point. The "downside" of this method is that it can be too easy for most of us to "tailor" items for the players or (to put it another way) to "hand out" whatever the players "need". That's fine for what it is, but... The beauty of the using the tables, on the other hand, is that they're completely impartial; what develops in game is as much a discovery for the ref as it is for the players; and (importantly!) by-the-book the treasure tables favour the fighting-men. Altering the basic distribution of magic items (consciously or unconsciously) will frequently mean the fighters take a hit, ultimately resulting in people complaining that fighters are too weak compared to M-Us. Here's a fun thing to try: roll up 20 magic items by the book and imagine these will be the first 20 magic items to appear in your next campaign... how are the fighters shaping up now? |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 18, 2015 9:32:46 GMT -6
The "downside" of this method is that it can be too easy for most of us to "tailor" items for the players or (to put it another way) to "hand out" whatever the players "need". Do people really do that? When I make up NPCs I just think of them as characters, so the gear they get is semi-random but suited to them. I've never really considered giving player characters something specific in the treasures they come across. Interesting, I might try that next time. But that kind of means designing the adventure around the magic items, like explaining why a troop of bandits has a wand of magic missiles. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 18, 2015 15:46:19 GMT -6
Do people really do that? Maybe it's not so widespread as I imagine, but I've certainly seen DMs who feel they need to be "fair" and ensure each player gets a magic item, even a relatively equivielent magic item. But that kind of means designing the adventure around the magic items, like explaining why a troop of bandits has a wand of magic missiles. For me, watching/developing the story around the emerging game circumstances is one of the great joys of being a ref. I don't believe it causes me to "design adventures" any particular way, but it sure helps to inject interesting connections and quirks of fate into the game that I probably wouldn't have imagined unaided FWIW I think this touches on the subtle difference between a "Dungeon Master" and a "Referee". Neither is better or worse. YMMV but I think the former tends toward exercising more control over circumstances and so becomes more responsible for them, while the latter tends toward impartially arbitrating whatever circumstances the dice may dictate. Both styles are enjoyable in slightly different ways |
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Post by Starbeard on Feb 23, 2015 17:25:56 GMT -6
There are so many awesome artifacts in the DMG that most of us will never ever see in a campaign that it really does seem miserly to fret over even such things as staffs of power and magi (which if you read Arneson's FFC, are simply wizard swords transmogrified into staffs with charges). Since there is no means of recharging magic items in D&D (not an accident, limited charges limited wizards especially as Gygax details in the DMG) why not go wild? Stinginess with magic items just lead players to want things like exceptional strength scores and at-will spells. Have any of you ever put a mask of jaree on a lich and tell a player it's theirs for the taking (if the can beat the lich...). Good stuff. Limited charged items with no possibility of recharging are great, in my experience they create the classic JRPG 'too many potions syndrome' in players: they can have a stack of great items and never actually use them, because they don't want to waste it in case they really need it later. |
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How are you determining the make up of the NPC parties? I gather this has some bearing on the overall results you're getting. Dungeon levels 5-7 seem out of place to me, but I don't know how you are generating them.
