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Post by Mr. Darke on Jan 29, 2015 12:55:48 GMT -6
Netflix has started streaming the H2 show America Unearthed and I have been watching it with interest. While I am skeptical of some things on the show it has given me an idea for making a setting based on ideas that have been bandied about. After watching a few episodes I have made a sketch of a possible fantastic version of North America on what human civilizations would be present.
This is what I have so far:
The Myans: Civilization in Florida and Georgia after their empire collapsed in Central America/Mexico. They have some settlements along the Gulf Coast. While present they do not have the same influence they had in their home.
The Norse: After their successful Newfoundland colonies expanded, The Norsemen traveled as far west as Minnesota and as far south as Tennessee. While the bulk of their 'nation' is in the NE there are settlements everywhere and small Norse states all over. One area is in the Ozark Region where they have formed a society with a mound building native tribe, the Celts and the local dwarves.
The Celts: Following the Norsemen the Celts have settled most of the Nordic lands. However they have went further west to settle the Pacific Northwest along with British Columbia and have peaceful relations with the local elves.
The Chinese/Polynesians: The main parts of these settlements actually are in Central and South America though they do have holdings in Baja California and California proper. The Chinese side of this group are more aggressive and have begun to enslave natives and have begun raiding the southern Celtic tribes. The Polynesians have allied with the natives after finding many similarities to them. They are distrusting of the Celts but hold no enmity toward them.
The Aztecs: The Aztecs control Mexico but serve a race of lizard beings and are known to be wholly evil. It is said that it was the Aztecs that caused the exodus of the Maya and that the beings they serve are remnants of a wholly evil Atlantis.
Other: Most native tribes are present but have been affected by the new cultures. For the most part they coexist peacefully given the number of monsters in the area. As for origins the Native Tribes tell of coming from Siberia long ago to find a ruined civilization here along with certain demi-humans.
Demi-Humans: As for the Demi-humans there are many that were here when the Native Tribes came. The Dwarves had settled parts of the Ozarks, Appalachia and the Rockies. The Elves, while represented over the continent, are mostly found in the northern regions with nations in the Pacific NW and Great Lakes regions. There are rumors of an Elven empire in South America. Halflings mostly came with the settlers though there are rumors of vicious halfling tribes in most native tales.
This is where I am at so far and I am now looking at how humanoids and monsters fit into this. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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otiv
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 133
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Post by otiv on Jan 29, 2015 14:12:55 GMT -6
Neat. I'd kind of like to see demi-humans conflated with the fantastic extraterrestial creatures of contemporary American folklore: flatwoods monsters, moth-men, dover demons, grey aliens, jersey devils, hopkinsville goblins, etc.
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Post by talysman on Jan 29, 2015 14:49:13 GMT -6
Don't forget Egyptians in the Grand Canyon!
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jan 29, 2015 16:47:51 GMT -6
There's nothing that says you can't run a Weird America game. LoFTP is already set in the 1600s. The implied setting for my home game is Transylvania, 1599. It wouldn't be a stretch to make it Massachusetts, 1621 or whatever.
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Post by Mr. Darke on Jan 29, 2015 21:21:03 GMT -6
Neat. I'd kind of like to see demi-humans conflated with the fantastic extraterrestial creatures of contemporary American folklore: flatwoods monsters, moth-men, dover demons, grey aliens, jersey devils, hopkinsville goblins, etc. That will actually come up in a Deadlands campaign that my best friend is working on. If it takes off I will let you know how it goes. That is on my radar. However I am not well versed on that one so research is going on. Not a bad idea. I was thinking the migrations would be earlier but worth toying with.
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benno
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 23
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Post by benno on Jan 31, 2015 8:49:39 GMT -6
What's the purpose of shoe-horning demi-humans into the setting? Why use trolls when Neanderthals suit this kind of weird setting so much better? Why use halflings when Menehune flavoured Homo Floresiensis fit better? Your idea is cool but traditional demi-humans would kill the flavour in my opinion.
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Post by tetramorph on Jan 31, 2015 10:14:04 GMT -6
What's the purpose of shoe-horning demi-humans into the setting? Why use trolls when Neanderthals suit this kind of weird setting so much better? Why use halflings when Menehune flavoured Homo Floresiensis fit better? Your idea is cool but traditional demi-humans would kill the flavour in my opinion. I don't know. I can't speak for OP. But it makes sense to me. I suppose its just because its D&D. It's fantasy. Those fell and fey creatures are part of the fantasy. At least for me.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jan 31, 2015 11:17:41 GMT -6
There are NO ELVES in America. That's just silly.
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Post by tetramorph on Jan 31, 2015 12:58:46 GMT -6
There are NO ELVES in America. That's just silly. Exactly! Silly = realist word for "fantasy" As in "fantastical medieval wargames campaigns"!
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jan 31, 2015 13:16:40 GMT -6
Forgot my /sarc tag! LOL
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benno
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 23
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Post by benno on Jan 31, 2015 18:17:21 GMT -6
You're right. Fantasy means doing the same thing over and over again for no other reason than it's fantasy.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 31, 2015 18:17:34 GMT -6
I remember reading a story where St. Patrick is sent to a tribe of "elves" in order to convert them to Christianity. The tribe eventually sails across to the New World, and have some contact with the Roanoke colony.
Some folks have done stuff where elves, dwarves, etc. were evolved from the other hominid branches. I'll try to find a link, although it may not be around anymore.
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Post by tetramorph on Jan 31, 2015 19:21:12 GMT -6
Hey, benno, my general experience here on ODD74 is that we try to be polite and generous with each other. Fin has created a great community and it is one of the reasons why I am willing to post here rather than on some other fora. I responded to the question in your post and I believe I did so without escalating anything, without personal attack, without rudeness. Your post comes across to me as sarcastic and rude. Together, that feels a bit like a personal attack. I am not an idiot. Nor am I ill-willed. I will take the benefit of the doubt with you. Feel free to make whatever point you are trying to make substantively rather than sarcastically. I look forward to reading that post. Thanks.
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benno
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 23
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Post by benno on Jan 31, 2015 19:48:22 GMT -6
You might want to look at you and Scott Anderson's posts before complaining about escalation and sarcasm. I don't consider either polite. My argument was never, it's America so no Elves or one from realism. Both attributed either directly or indirectly to my post. So in the interests of mediation, I would appreciate if you don't play naive.
My point is exactly my last sentence: it would kill the flavour. Weird America is cool but it's not Tolkien or Puesdo-Tolkien. I don't understand why I have to write an essay on aesthetics when I just asked a question, which you answered and I accepted.
My last post was in retaliation not provocation. You and Scott are doing exactly what you are accusing me of and I think that's pretty shirtty of you. Whatever, I don't have to post here.
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Post by Scott Anderson on Jan 31, 2015 20:32:18 GMT -6
I just forgot my /sarc tag
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Post by Porphyre on Feb 1, 2015 2:19:24 GMT -6
About elfs and dwarfs, I must confess that, having been raised in D&D by the Mentzer Basic Set and Larry Elmore's illustrations, I personnally always felt that D&D elfs & dwarfs actually had something very "american" in my european eyes. maybe the landscapes that looked more like the Aappalachians that the Alps, maybe the breeches that looked suspiciously similar to jeans, maybe Mister Elmore's distinctive 80's women's hairdo, or the celtic/native american mix that he later deveolopped for the Dragonlance aesthetics, for me this was what set apart D&D fantasy from the "classic" european fantasy I was used to (Tolkien, arthurian legendarium, etc.) So, to me "american" elfs and dwarfs wouldn't be a real break of tone, but that's highly subjective.
Besides, as we already discussed itin the thread abour semi-humens "ethnicities", you can put a wide range of significations behind the terms "elfs" anf "dwarfs", just keeping the bare-bones of this people as defined by the terms of the D&D game. "Elf" meaning just "people of both weaponry and magic" and "dwarf" meaning "diminutive, hardy folk of warriors with a knack for magical hammers and undergrounds", and not always "aristocratic pre-raphaelite looking eldrith knights" and "small ale-drinking metalsmiths with and inexplicable stottish accent". Most cultures around the world have some equivalents of "the fair folk" and "the small people". If if you want semi-humans as "First people", we can figure that the viking settlers, when encountering them for the first time just dubbed them "Alfar" and "Duergar" for lack of a better term.
On the other hand, if you really want to have "northern Europe middle ages" style elves and dwarves (archaic plural included), when you already have vikings and celtic settlements in your Weird America setting, it's easy to say that some dwarves were aboard viking longships and elves in St culumban's coracle.
OR, imagine that they wern't any elves nor dwarves in America; but that , when the Vikings firts arrived in labrador, importing their beliefs , "forced" them into existence as long-time residents of hills and forests , ala Neil Gaiman's American Gods
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benno
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 23
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Post by benno on Feb 1, 2015 3:06:20 GMT -6
Most people around the world did not have fair-folk equivalents pre-contact.
Those are all good ideas but what I asked, what was the purpose. If you want traditional demi-humans because D&D or Fantasy then fine. I think there are better options but I have no problem with that. Whether or not Elves are American was attributed to me but not something I ever claimed, either way.
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 1, 2015 5:26:26 GMT -6
here on ODD74 is that we try to be polite and generous with each other. Fin has created a great community and it is one of the reasons why I am willing to post here rather than on some other fora. Thanks, I try hard to keep the right kind of atmosphere here. Sooner or later, trolls get nuked hard by me. Beeno hasn't been around long (22 posts) so I suspect he doesn't realize that this is a friendly place, and he's probably reacting the way one might on most other boards by assuming ill intent. I think all will smooth over here quickly.
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Post by Porphyre on Feb 1, 2015 5:41:38 GMT -6
There are NO ELVES in America. That's just silly. Sorry. Couldn't resist any longer.
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Post by Mr. Darke on Feb 1, 2015 13:06:50 GMT -6
What's the purpose of shoe-horning demi-humans into the setting? Because I want to.
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 1, 2015 14:22:21 GMT -6
What's the purpose of shoe-horning demi-humans into the setting? Because I want to. Certainly a valid position. I like to design campaigns that last a short time, so I run through a lot of ideas. This one has some neat potential to me. The only thing that makes me nervous is the stereotyping that can occur, much like in the real world where "injuns are bad" or whatever. If your group is cool with it, however, I like the idea and would say go for it!
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Post by Porphyre on Feb 1, 2015 15:04:04 GMT -6
Historically, the Skraelingar met by Greenland settlers are believed to be proto-Inuit people. But , since we don't actually know anything about them by the sagas , you can deceide they are what you wish. The etymology of the word is obscure, but according to the Online Etymology Dictionnary, it could translate as "little people". You can have them being dwarfs, or goblins.
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benno
Level 1 Medium
Posts: 23
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Post by benno on Feb 1, 2015 22:36:41 GMT -6
Oh, I see. You need to grit your teeth through ridicule here because you are new. What a "nice" place.
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 2, 2015 6:09:34 GMT -6
Oh, I see. You need to grit your teeth through ridicule here because you are new. What a "nice" place. No, but posts like this can earn you a Time Out. Maybe you didn't notice that I was trying to smooth over the situation? Looking at your recent posts, the first bunch are fine and the most recent dozen or so are simply trolling. Play nice.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 2, 2015 9:43:19 GMT -6
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randyb
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 92
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Post by randyb on Feb 2, 2015 10:24:12 GMT -6
My personal and subjective reaction is "cliche of a different kind" - "The geography is based on X, therefore use the cultures of X." This as different from "Let's explore the cultures of Y in the geography of X," even where it is acknowledged that "cultures of Y" is a cliche all its own.
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Post by Mr. Darke on Feb 2, 2015 11:30:25 GMT -6
Certainly a valid position. I like to design campaigns that last a short time, so I run through a lot of ideas. This one has some neat potential to me. The only thing that makes me nervous is the stereotyping that can occur, much like in the real world where "injuns are bad" or whatever. If your group is cool with it, however, I like the idea and would say go for it! That is why I am being very careful in the design. I don't want to make one group the big evil so as to feed stereotyping.
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Post by Mr. Darke on Feb 2, 2015 18:01:23 GMT -6
That's also in the works. Right now I am getting the base ideas together and will flesh out later. In all honesty borrowing, mixing and matching from everywhere is a real possibility. In fact I have sketched in a spot to place Mordred's knights having a settlement after being exiled from England. (It ties in with the setting I am running at a game store) So things like Djinn in the midwest and Wedigos in Austria are all possibilities. I always figured that pieces could be rearranged as the DM likes.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 3, 2015 5:40:55 GMT -6
Well, D&D has always been a mish-mash of every mythological and pulp fiction reference that caught Gygax's eye, so there's nothing unusual in using any and all inspirations you want. One change that might make much more difference to the feel is the climate - make things much hotter or colder and there's a knock-on effect on just about everything.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 11:08:40 GMT -6
There are NO ELVES in America. That's just silly.
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