The origin of AD&D 1E multiple attacks

[jeff]

I don't think the good AD&D folks, except at K&K (where I can't seem to get an account approved ), would know the answer to this...so I am hoping I can get it answered here

Is there anywhere in OD&D, early Dragon, Supplements, or the Strategic Review that support the AD&D 1E multiple attacks per round that are shown on p. 25 or the Players Manual?

Did Gary use the 3/2 and 2/1 attacks for upper level Fighting Men in his own game prior to the publication of AD&D?

[Deleted]

1) CHAINMAIL. Hero fights as 4 men.

2) Don't know, but fighters over first level definitely got one attack per level on 1 HD monsters.

[paulg]

The FAQ from the second issue of the Strategic Review (1975) says: "When fantastic combat is taking place there is normally only one exchange of attacks per round, and unless the rules state otherwise, a six-sided die is used to determine how many hit points damage is sustained when an attack succeeds. Weapons type is not considered, save where magical weapons are concerned. A super hero, for example, would attack eight times only if he were fighting normal men (or creatures basically that strength, i.e., kobolds, goblins, gnomes, dwarves, and so on)."

The earliest really similar thing of which I'm aware is the Monk from Blackmoor. The chart on page 6 includes level-based column for Attacks/Melee Rnd much like the one on page 25 of the Players Handbook. The values are expresses like "1/1", "3/2", "2/1", etc. Of course, this is specific to monks.

[chicagowiz]

You know, reading this thread, and Paul's comment about the monk and Blackmoor - if these guys were like we are now, they probably liberally used/reused/tinkered with each others' ideas and rules. It's nice to get that sense from reading things like this... we're a long chain of gaming geeks who like to "see how this works."

[Lord Cias]

Yes, multiple attacks vs. 1 HD critters was a carry over from Chainmail and OD&D as gronan and paulg both note.

The multiple attacks a fighter gains against ANY opponent at level 7 (3/2 attacks) and 13 (2 attacks), as far as I can tell, did not appear before the publication of the AD&D PHB. There is a distinct trend of increasing the abilities of the fighter class while simultaneously limiting the power of the magic-user class within each new rules update - OD&D->Supplements->AD&D->UA - and I believe adding these multiple attacks is just a part of that trend.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2015 10:15:00 GMT -6 chicagowiz said:

You know, reading this thread, and Paul's comment about the monk and Blackmoor - if these guys were like we are now, they probably liberally used/reused/tinkered with each others' ideas and rules. It's nice to get that sense from reading things like this... we're a long chain of gaming geeks who like to "see how this works."

Exactly. Remember, in 1973 a four function calculator cost $129.99, which is $691.38 in 2014 dollars. That means that if you wanted to calculate probabilities you did it by hand. So instead, you tinkered. A lot. With everything. All the time.

[waysoftheearth]

Aside from multiple attacks versus normal-types we also see:


In 1971 the Chainmail Man-to-Man combat rules allow multiple blows per round, based on weapon class. Fast weapons strike up to three blows per round; slow weapons strike only one blow per round (but have far better odds of penetrating armor).

In (September?) 1973 an updated version of the Man-to-Man combat rules--including percentile-based alternative Attack Matrices--appear in the pre-publication OD&D draft (aka the Dalluhn Manuscript).

In (January?) 1974 OD&D is published. The Dalluhn combat section has been replaced by back-references to Chainmail--presumably to save space. Although combat is now largely unspecified (the alternative Attack Matrices survived; now converted to d20) the Man-to-Man concept of blows per round is theoretically still inherited from Chainmail.

In (February) 1975 Greyhawk (p16) lists Men as having 1 or 2 attacks "According to Weapon type". This aligns quite neatly with the Man-to-Man blows per round rule but, curiously, other man-types are given only one attack (possibly with damage stats implying use of heavier weapons for their respective sizes?).

In (July) 1975 The Warlock rules expand upon D&D's combat rules, now allowing 1 to 4 blows per round (called "phases" in these rules).

In 1977 Holmes--possibly influenced by Warlock?--simplifies the Man-to-Man rule, now allowing 2 attacks per round with regular weapons or 1 attack per round with heavy weapons (prior to TSR's famous edit).

In 1978 (around the same time as AD&D) Adventure in Fantasy divides each melee round into three segments, allowing figures to attack once per segment; thus up to 3 attacks per melee round.

[jeff]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

[Deleted]

In OD&D, Gary uses groups of levels for various classes for both to-hit and saving throws; fighters in groups of 3, clerics 4, and magic users 5. In AD&D, these groups were shrunken, fighters now 2, clerics 3, etc. Since the extra attacks in the PHB are in groups of 3 (or two sets of three, rather), that makes me think that the extra attack chart pre-dates the to-hit and saving throw changes as seen in the DMG.

[sepulchre]

Concerning normal combat and multiple attacks Bargle's post from some time ago has also been a helpful reminder:

To understand how "ferocity, speed, and weaponry" were represented before this (not "the") optional combat system, a trolls ferocity and speed were represented by an attack for each of it's hit die and a heroes was represented by his number of levels, and crucially at the same hit chance as a normal man.

However, the problem is no longer does a hero fight as "4 men" when he attacks 4 times with a 17 thac0, but actually he is attacking as 6 men! This is because a 17 thac0 is +2 more than the "normal mans" 19 thac0. This is further exacerbated at level 7 when the super hero fights with a thac0 of 14. his 8 attacks per round are the equal of not "8 men" but of 18! This is a wild distortion!

What I am saying is that one shouldn't combine the ferocity and speed subsumed within the attack matrix with the ferocity and speed assumed in the level as it distorts and magnifies the explicitly listed powers of heroes, trolls, and superheroes et al. When a hero is attacking orcs, or an ogre is attacking a group of hirelings, if you are to use multiple attacks and if you are going to use the d20 attack roll, you should use a thac0 of 20 (or the equivalent of a "normal man" depending on what edition you are using) with a number of attacks equal to the hero/monsters level and not a modified thaco with number of attacks equal to the hero/monsters level.

link

[Lord Cias]

Jan 6, 2015 8:53:50 GMT -6 sepulchre said:

Concerning normal combat and multiple attacks Bargle's post from some time ago has also been a helpful reminder:

To understand how "ferocity, speed, and weaponry" were represented before this (not "the") optional combat system, a trolls ferocity and speed were represented by an attack for each of it's hit die and a heroes was represented by his number of levels, and crucially at the same hit chance as a normal man.

However, the problem is no longer does a hero fight as "4 men" when he attacks 4 times with a 17 thac0, but actually he is attacking as 6 men! This is because a 17 thac0 is +2 more than the "normal mans" 19 thac0. This is further exacerbated at level 7 when the super hero fights with a thac0 of 14. his 8 attacks per round are the equal of not "8 men" but of 18! This is a wild distortion!

What I am saying is that one shouldn't combine the ferocity and speed subsumed within the attack matrix with the ferocity and speed assumed in the level as it distorts and magnifies the explicitly listed powers of heroes, trolls, and superheroes et al. When a hero is attacking orcs, or an ogre is attacking a group of hirelings, if you are to use multiple attacks and if you are going to use the d20 attack roll, you should use a thac0 of 20 (or the equivalent of a "normal man" depending on what edition you are using) with a number of attacks equal to the hero/monsters level and not a modified thaco with number of attacks equal to the hero/monsters level.

link

That's how I do it. An 8th level fighting man may attack once as a Superhero, twice as a Hero, or eight times as a "normal man." 

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2015 8:53:50 GMT -6 sepulchre said:

Concerning normal combat and multiple attacks Bargle's post from some time ago has also been a helpful reminder:

I guess the issue here is whether or not it matters if a 4th level fighter is -exactly- as powerful as 4 normal men. I would consider Conan, Rambo and Elric as superheroes and they are certainly more powerful than 8 ordinary dudes. 18 men sounds closer to what they should actually be.