10' Poles

[oakesspalding]

Totally out of left field, but do people play that a 10' pole must be carried in two hands, or could you, say, hold a torch or weapon in one hand and push a pole in the other?

[geoffrey]

I wish I could post the image, but look at page 31 of B1: In Search of the Unknown. That fighter in the middle is casually carrying his 10' pole with a single hand. That settles it for me.

[oakesspalding]

Good catch. I guess what I meant to ask is could it be used with only one hand to prod and the like? I'm not sure the picture settles that.

You would also think that any village shop that catered to adventurers might sell a pole made in, say, three sections that you could unscrew and thus carry on your back or whatever.

[geoffrey]

Nov 29, 2014 20:08:02 GMT -6 oakesspalding said:

I guess what I meant to ask is could it be used with only one hand to prod and the like?

I let the circumstances dictate whether a 10' pole could be used to do something one-handed. Most of the time, I allow it.

[talysman]

Depends on what you're trying to do. I probably wouldn't allow any very precise movements with one hand, and using it as an impromptu weapon -- blunt spear -- would require two hands as well. But a simple poke at the floor in front of you? Easy.

Some uses require two people.

[Vile Traveller]

I suggest acquiring a 10' pole and giving it a go. Trust me, it's not easy even when they're made of bamboo!

[cooper]

B/X implies that the character mapping may not hold any item in their hands while doing so (no torches, no weapons etc). The character with the pole should be so similarly restricted.

[Stormcrow]

Really? Analysis of canonical sources of how to hold a pole?

[oakesspalding]

It beats trolling.

[Starbeard]

Examples of 10'-ish spears intended for one-handed use aren't that uncommon, so I'd imagine it's perfectly doable.

With that said, though, when handling any pole with one hand you severely limit both your range and your accuracy at the extended range. With two hands you can extend the pole out to maximum range and manoeuvre it with some degree of accuracy, but with one hand it becomes much more difficult to do so.

I'd rule that using it one-handed effectively turns the 10' pole into a 6' or even 5' pole.

[scottyg]

I'd say apply some common sense to what the character is trying to do. Are they prodding the floor ahead for pit traps? Two hands, IMO. Poking a chest lock to trigger a trap? One hand, etc.

[Torreny]

With the other hand shielding the face, no? Haha.

[Finarvyn]

Nov 30, 2014 8:49:48 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

I suggest acquiring a 10' pole and giving it a go. Trust me, it's not easy even when they're made of bamboo!

I was thinking something along these lines. I think that ceilings in regular homes are around 8' tall. Heck, a lot of bedrooms aren't much larger than 10'x10'. This would seem to limit greatly where one could hold a 10' pole and the direction that it could be pointed and what you can do while holding it. If you want to open a door, for example, you probably have to set down the pole or lean it somewhere. If you want to turn a corner with the pole, you probably are slowed down quite a lot. Running with such a pole in a dungeon is probably impossible.

So I'm not sure the real issue is it's weight as much as its length.

[Starbeard]

In a 10'x10' room with an 8' ceiling, opposite corners would be 14.14' feet apart: that's just enough to stand at one corner and still have a foot or so of wiggle room to manoeuvre the pole. If you're poking at the ceiling in the opposite corner, that gives another 2 feet of room. Obviously, poking around from wall to wall means you'd have zero wiggle room.

I'm picturing lots of noise-based wandering monster checks as the hapless character swings his 10' pole around, smacking everyone else in the head, thwacking the walls as he tries to get the pole into the right angle, and generally knocking over anything in the room that isn't bolted down.

[Vile Traveller]

Thanks for prompting me to get out my copy of messrs. Butterfield, Parker and Honigmann's "What is Dungeons and Dragons" and checking for this passage I remembered from my youth:

Many parties swear by the ten-foot pole, a piece of equipment which allows them to check for traps at a well-removed distance, but anyone who has actually carried such a pole in real life will realise just how cumbersome it is. A six-foot pole is more manoeuvreable

That had most of our groups carrying eight-foot spears. I love excuses to pick that out of the shelf.

[scottyg]

IMC, spears don't work as substitutes for 10' poles in most cases. If a spear would suffice, 10' poles wouldn't be on the equipment list. A spear might trigger the most sensitive small traps, but in most other cases it wouldn't work. Based on the weight of the pole, vs the weight of spears, the diameter of the pole is much thicker. The kind of prodding and pressing you'd be using the pole for would be too much abuse to the spear blade, and the shaft might snap.
If I remember correctly, the primary use for 10' poles originally was probing ahead for pit traps. At best I'd give somebody using a 6' pole a small bonus to avoid falling in, maybe falling in on a 1-2 instead of 1-3, and a 6'-8' staff will keep the user within the 10' radius that is common for many traps' area of effect.

[oakesspalding]

So, I asked this because I was going to elaborate on the encumbrance of a pole and how you could/could not carry it, etc. in a couple of new sentences for the equipment section of Zylarthen. Interestingly I noticed that none of the standards--LL, S&W or LOTFP--spend any time elaborating on poles, though they each have at least a page apiece explaining and describing other pieces of equipment. The encumbrance of a Zylarthen pole is 3 dots, which is pretty hefty, but since it's not defined as a weapon you could (according to the letter of the encumbrance rules) carry a pole along with, say, a pole arm, or two poles or whatever. And it isn't stated explicitly that you need two hands (as it is stated for pole arms).

I could write the above suggestions up a la 3e in a paragraph or three, but I think the lesson here (which of course I should know by now as a member of these boards) is that it's probably better to say nothing. Why pin yourself down? Let the players tell you what they want to do with it, how they want to use it, etc. and go from there, allowing or vetoing where appropriate. For all I know, they might even improve upon the suggestions above. I'm inclined to say that if you want to check for, say, pit traps WELL, you need to use it with both hands, although you could certainly weakly push it with one (and make an annoying scraping noise in the process). But it's probably best to let that come out in play.

Thank you for some great input.

[Merctime]

Dec 2, 2014 8:01:40 GMT -6 oakesspalding said:

...it's probably better to say nothing. Why pin yourself down? Let the players tell you what they want to do with it, how they want to use it, etc. and go from there, allowing or vetoing where appropriate.

This is generally my philosophy regarding most, if not all, things D&D / Role-playing these days. In any event, I hope you reach a comfortable conclusion for yourself in this matter, Oakes

[geoffrey]

My players can hold a lantern in one hand, map with their other hand, hold a sword in their other hand, have a drawn bow and arrow in their other hand, and prod with a 10' pole with their other hand...all while running and carrying 10,000 gp.

Don't believe me? Just ask them!

[Porphyre]

Dec 2, 2014 10:48:56 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

My players can hold a lantern in one hand, map with their other hand, hold a sword in their other hand, have a drawn bow and arrow in their other hand, and prod with a 10' pole with their other hand...all while running and carrying 10,000 gp.

Mine weren't so dextreous. Sometimes they did have to put the 10' pole in their backpacks 

[otiv]

In my games ten foot poles usually come with a little hook on one end. I would allow players to hang lanterns and things from the hooks and carry them using the poles, but so far none of my players have thought of that. The pole itself is two handed to use but that hook counts as an extra hand for some purposes.

[Starbeard]

Here's a thought: does having "ten foot pole: you know, for checking traps" on the item list discourage players from using the item in more creative ways, or from coming up with other ways of trap checking?

[Deleted]

Speaking of 10' poles, the way we've always played was that probing ahead with your pole completely negates any pits and trip wire traps you might run into. That's just what it did. However, I've recently played with new people on G+ and noticed that some DMs roll to determine if the pole-wielder notices the trap, often giving ridiculously low chances such as 1 in 3 or less.

What say you?

[cadriel]

Dec 3, 2014 6:18:49 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

Speaking of 10' poles, the way we've always played was that probing ahead with your pole completely negates any pits and trip wire traps you might run into. That's just what it did. However, I've recently played with new people on G+ and noticed that some DMs roll to determine if the pole-wielder notices the trap, often giving ridiculously low chances such as 1 in 3 or less.

What say you?

Really it should depend upon the trap. If a pit trap triggers on any weight, then tapping with a pole should always reveal it; if it's hollow beneath there should be a noticeable sound and a chance to detect it. But a floor that crumbles when there are over 400 lbs of weight should have zero chance to be detected with a pole.

Similarly with trip wires. It depends on what happens when you hit the trip wire. If an arrow fires from dead ahead, the character with the pole should have some good chance of being hit by it anyway. But a stone block falling from overhead will land harmlessly. I'd say a pole should trigger most trip wires, but not necessarily all pressure plates, since the latter may have higher weight required to trigger them.

Context is everything with traps. A 10' pole should certainly not mean trap invincibility, and 1 in 3 may be quite appropriate for a given trap.

[Starbeard]

Dec 3, 2014 6:31:48 GMT -6 cadriel said:

Dec 3, 2014 6:18:49 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

Speaking of 10' poles, the way we've always played was that probing ahead with your pole completely negates any pits and trip wire traps you might run into. That's just what it did. However, I've recently played with new people on G+ and noticed that some DMs roll to determine if the pole-wielder notices the trap, often giving ridiculously low chances such as 1 in 3 or less.

What say you?

Really it should depend upon the trap. If a pit trap triggers on any weight, then tapping with a pole should always reveal it; if it's hollow beneath there should be a noticeable sound and a chance to detect it. But a floor that crumbles when there are over 400 lbs of weight should have zero chance to be detected with a pole.

Similarly with trip wires. It depends on what happens when you hit the trip wire. If an arrow fires from dead ahead, the character with the pole should have some good chance of being hit by it anyway. But a stone block falling from overhead will land harmlessly. I'd say a pole should trigger most trip wires, but not necessarily all pressure plates, since the latter may have higher weight required to trigger them.

Context is everything with traps. A 10' pole should certainly not mean trap invincibility, and 1 in 3 may be quite appropriate for a given trap.

Indeed, context is everything. I will always try to write up at least a quick sentence or two on how a trap is designed when I'm putting a dungeon level together, so that I can decide if what the characters are doing fully, partially, or fail to negate its effects.

That said, I've always had the urge to place a few trip wires whose traps spring exactly 10' in front of the wire. Or some traps that have an effective range of 11' from the trigger.

[Red Baron]

Dec 2, 2014 10:48:56 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

My players can hold a lantern in one hand, map with their other hand, hold a sword in their other hand, have a drawn bow and arrow in their other hand, and prod with a 10' pole with their other hand...all while running and carrying 10,000 gp.

Don't believe me? Just ask them!

To be fair, most of your players do have nine arms, tentacles, and a laser cannon leg.