Joined: Oct 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 360 Location: Lille, France Karma: 29
Re: Spell complexity & counter spell in OD&D « Reply #1 on Dec 3, 2008, 5:59pm »
Not the spell complexity, but counter spells, yes. As I use only 2d6, the roll is 7+spell level. A M-U can counter any spell from a M-U of lower or equal lvl, and if the lvl is higher, lower the spell effect.
Not the spell complexity, but counter spells, yes. As I use only 2d6, the roll is 7+spell level. A M-U can counter any spell from a M-U of lower or equal lvl, and if the lvl is higher, lower the spell effect.
I'm kinda curious how you would do that in an OD&D combat? Are you using alternative rules? If a mage counterspells another mage, does the counterspelling mage lose his magic spell memorized in his head? If he's already shot off his memorized spells, does he lose his ability to counterspell?
(I am asking from a lack of experience with Chainmail/OD&D - my background is mainly Holmes Basic onward. I'm more asking to learn how someone does it from Chainmail/OD&D so I can learn from their examples)
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 59 Location: North Central Florida Karma: 4
Re: Spell complexity & counter spell in OD&D « Reply #3 on Dec 11, 2008, 3:12pm »
I haven't actually tried this, but I've been pondering it to give magic-users something to do in combat (since I enforce the 'nothing but daggers' rule). My concept is that magic-users can turn spells the same way clerics turn undead. They have to declare it as their combat action at the beginning of the round, and if an enemy casts a spell during that round they roll to counter it. I still haven't decided whether it should be one spell or all spells cast get countered, though.
Any fool of a DM can kill his players, it's as easy as "Rocks fall, everybody dies". The Art lies in giving them the opportunity to kill themselves, in as entertaining a manner as possible.
Not the spell complexity, but counter spells, yes. As I use only 2d6, the roll is 7+spell level. A M-U can counter any spell from a M-U of lower or equal lvl, and if the lvl is higher, lower the spell effect.
I'm kinda curious how you would do that in an OD&D combat? Are you using alternative rules? If a mage counterspells another mage, does the counterspelling mage lose his magic spell memorized in his head? If he's already shot off his memorized spells, does he lose his ability to counterspell?
(I am asking from a lack of experience with Chainmail/OD&D - my background is mainly Holmes Basic onward. I'm more asking to learn how someone does it from Chainmail/OD&D so I can learn from their examples)
It's still a work in progress for the french adapation / clone of od&d / chainmail. So firts tests are still at their begining. I don't use alternative system (with a d20 for fight and saves), but the 2D6 system from chainmail, with some simplification on the man-to-man fighting.
The spell is cast, even is cancelled by another mage - it seems me fit with the idea of counterspell [I can explain my reading of the magic system].
I'm kinda curious how you would do that in an OD&D combat? Are you using alternative rules? If a mage counterspells another mage, does the counterspelling mage lose his magic spell memorized in his head? If he's already shot off his memorized spells, does he lose his ability to counterspell?
(I am asking from a lack of experience with Chainmail/OD&D - my background is mainly Holmes Basic onward. I'm more asking to learn how someone does it from Chainmail/OD&D so I can learn from their examples)
It's still a work in progress for the french adapation / clone of od&d / chainmail. So firts tests are still at their begining. I don't use alternative system (with a d20 for fight and saves), but the 2D6 system from chainmail, with some simplification on the man-to-man fighting.
The spell is cast, even is cancelled by another mage - it seems me fit with the idea of counterspell [I can explain my reading of the magic system].
No, it makes sense. I'm going to have to ponder how that might work in a non-Chainmail combat sense, but that's another topic not germaine to this thread. Thank you for explaining it!
Joined: Oct 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 560 Location: Austin TX Karma: 17
Re: Spell complexity & counter spell in OD&D « Reply #6 on Dec 26, 2008, 6:42pm »
I've been playing around with the Chainmail counter-spell system, here is a beta version. Please let me know what you think.
Compare the levels of the 2 magic-users, the stronger magician can successfully cast a counter-spell with a two dice score of 7 or better, while a weaker magician needs a higher score as shown below. A counter-spell fully occupies a magician's powers. A successfully countered spell is lost from memory, and note that engaging in a counter-spell "duel" negates any further spell use by both participants for the remainder of that round.
Magic-User is: 1 level lower: 8 or better 2 levels lower: 9 or better 3-4 levels lower: 10 or better 5-6 levels lower: 11 or better 7 or more levels lower: 12
Results:
Both sides must roll a Save versus Spells.
If the dispelling magic-user misses the saving throw, a spell is removed from his or her memorized spells in the following order of preference. (1) a spell of the same level as the countered spell, (2) a spell of one level higher than the countered spell, and (3) a spell of one level lower than the countered spell. In any of the 3 cases, the "forgotten" spell is determined randomly by the referee. A successful save indicates no adverse effects for that character, though he or she will still be unable to cast a spell until the next round.
If the loser fails the save, consult the table below. A successful save versus spells indicates that, besides losing the countered spell from memory, he or she suffers no further ill effects.
@dubeers - that's pretty cool - have you playtested this?
No. It is something that's been percolating in the back of my mind, as a preliminary to reorganizing my OD&D campaign from way back in late 1970's. I really appreciate the feedback. If you use, let me know if it works. The act of actually typing it all out has given me some additional ideas, I'll try and post them in the next day or two.
Joined: Oct 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 560 Location: Austin TX Karma: 17
Re: Spell complexity & counter spell in OD&D « Reply #11 on Dec 27, 2008, 10:16am »
Okay, I've cleaned up the presentation and listed some possible variants to allow a referee to customize this optional rule to his or her liking.
Counter-Spell
A magic-user may use his or her arcane knowledge to attempt to neutralize an opponent's spell. This is referred to a counter-spell or spell duel. To engage in a duel a magic-user must be able to see the attacking magic-user and he or she must have at least one magic spell, of any type and level, memorized. Cleric spells cannot be countered. Any condition which would prevent a magic-user from casting a spell would likewise prevent the countering of a spell by that magic-user.
Resolving a Spell Duel
Compare the levels of the countering magic-users with the spell-casting magic-user; then consult the table below. Attempting a counter-spell fully occupies a magician's powers. A successfully countered spell is lost from memory. Note that engaging in a counter-spell duel negates any further spell use by both participants for the remainder of that round.
Magic-User is:
Equal or higher level:
7 or better
1 level lower:
8 or better
2 levels lower:
9 or better
3-4 levels lower:
10 or better
5-6 levels lower:
11 or better
7 or more levels lower:
12
After the counter spell attempt is resolved, both combatants must roll a Saving Throw versus Spells.
If the dispelling magic-user misses the saving throw, a spell is removed from his or her memorized spells in the following order of preference. (1) a spell of the same level as the countered spell, (2) a spell of one level higher than the countered spell, and (3) a spell of one level lower than the countered spell. In any of the 3 cases, the "forgotten" spell is determined randomly by the referee. A successful save indicates no adverse effects for that character, though he or she will still be unable to cast a spell until the next round.
If the attacking magic-user fails his or her save, consult the table below. A successful save versus spells indicates no additional negative results besides losing the countered spell from memory.
1d6 Result
1.
Confusion (1d4 round)
2.
Unconscious 1d4+1 rounds
3.
1d4+1 points damage
4.
Charmed
5.
Forget all spells
6.
Feeblemind
Possible Variants:
Allow magic-user to counter illusionist spells and vice versa; and allow a cleric to counter another cleric's spells. Reduce difficulty for countering for magic-users of higher relative level than the spell-caster. Disallow countering of certain spells, or high level spells. Limit Counter-Spells to a specificially memorized "Counter Spell" specific to level. (ex: a third level "Counter-Spell III" takes up a spell slot, may only counter spells of level 3 or less and, once cast is gone from memory).
@dubeers - that's pretty cool - have you playtested this?
No. It is something that's been percolating in the back of my mind, as a preliminary to reorganizing my OD&D campaign from way back in late 1970's. I really appreciate the feedback. If you use, let me know if it works. The act of actually typing it all out has given me some additional ideas, I'll try and post them in the next day or two.
Very cool - I can't wait to see those additional items. I remember very fondly the scene from the 1984 Conan the Destroyer movie where the evil priest and the mage were in a duel to open/shut the door. That always sparked my curiousity why (at the time 1E/Holmes) D&D never had that type of mage spell/counterspell. I never tried to make my own rules.
I will add this to my list of amassed house rules. Right now, the only "true" OD&D game is my wife's solo game and she's a fighter. I do play an NPC mage, so we'll see, I like saving the "cool" stuff for my PCs to do.
I am running a 1E/OSRIC game in January, I may "port" this over and ask for comments.
Edited to add: I just saw your addendum. Very cool!
I remember very fondly the scene from the 1984 Conan the Destroyer movie where the evil priest and the mage were in a duel to open/shut the door. That always sparked my curiousity why (at the time 1E/Holmes) D&D never had that type of mage spell/counterspell. I never tried to make my own rules.
Yeah, that scene was in the back of my mind, too. The basic Chainmail guidelines seemed a good fit for the alternate combat system and doesn't tinker too much with the Vancian feel of the OD&D magic system.
Quote:
Edited to add: I just saw your addendum. Very cool!
Thanks! I'm still thinking it over. I also just got some feedback from another user on K&KA which I will post here; along with further thoughts on countering spells.
Joined: Oct 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 560 Location: Austin TX Karma: 17
Re: Spell complexity & counter spell in OD&D « Reply #14 on Dec 27, 2008, 10:53am »
Some suggestions from a different board:
If the spell countered is one memorized by the countering spell caster, that spell is forgotten ... Not a bad suggestion. I've tried to keep the rules simple but this adds an interesting facet to countering a spell. A referee may even wish to add a bonus to the countering magic-user's chances for successfully neutralizing the spell in such a case.
...Otherwise, one spell of equivalent level or higher is forgotten, chosen by the referee (possibly at random). I considered a "hard" penalty for countering spell. I decided against it, most because Chainmail implies a lack of penalty for countering. I personally find the saving throw more appealing but some of you may find this idea useful.
Thus, if the spell caster knows he's going to have to counter a specific spell, he can prepare for it by memorizing that spell. But if the countering is impromptu, the cost will be higher: the loss of a random spell. Great idea. This variant will probably reduce the number of counter-spells attempted in your campaign, which may suit your style of refereeing.
Overall, I tried to keep within the spirit of OD&D's rules: clean, simple, fast. How simple is too simple, or how much complexity is too much is subjective. I've therefore included the suggestions here; they are fine ideas and may be of use to some of you.
![[Home]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif)
![[Help]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif)
![[Search]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif)
![[Login]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif)
![[Register]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/menu/register.gif)
![[Search This Thread]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/search2.gif)
![[Send Topic To Friend]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/buttons/sendtopic.gif)
![[Print]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif)
Author
Logged![[avatar]](http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/images/avatars/goblinoidgames/210153305548cd4dcd40ac6.gif)
![[homepage]](http://s4.images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif)
![[avatar]](http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z17/tmpiper/PHPBB_Icon.jpg){kind=icon}
![[avatar]](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4qI6i7wKX1c/SdZoRveimpI/AAAAAAAAADI/N5Grto0YRg4/S220/Mage.JPG)