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Post by Necropraxis on Jul 18, 2012 11:05:12 GMT -6
Iron Rations (for dungeon expeditions) 1 person/1 week (15 GP) Standard Rations for 1 person, 1 week (5 GP)
-- Men & Magic page 14
It seems to me that anyone on any kind of expedition would want iron rations. Thus, standard rations are only of use if one is in civilization. In other words, this is how much it costs for your PC to eat.
So, it seems like PCs should be marking off 20 GP per month when not adventuring for basic expenses, not including shelter. Presumably one could survive on less, but it would be penurious fare, and I might perhaps impost a -1 penalty on attacks and saving throws in that case.
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paulg
Level 3 Conjurer
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Post by paulg on Jul 18, 2012 12:18:33 GMT -6
I assume that basic living expenses for time outside the dungeon are covered by the 1% of XP upkeep cost.
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Post by Necropraxis on Jul 18, 2012 19:51:20 GMT -6
I guess I'm not sure why anyone would every buy standard rations then. Originally, I was thinking that standard rations would be for dungeons and iron rations would be for wilderness exploration. That sort of made sense on its face, because you may be out in the wilderness for weeks at a time, and preservation would be more of an issue, whereas with dungeon exploration you can often get back to town relatively quickly afterwards. But then I noticed that iron rations are explicitly meant for dungeons.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 20:08:34 GMT -6
IMC, at least ...
Standard rations are cheaper and taste better, being more like standard meals but packaged for toting around.
Iron rations are much like the old US Military K-Rations: tough to chew, unappetizing, nearly tasteless; while being nourishing, highly portable, and packaged to resist spoilage (as well as being inherently resistant to same). They are more expensive but less bulk.
NPCs IMC will not tolerate iron rations for the long haul, reflected by a decreasing morale. HTH.
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paulg
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 75
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Post by paulg on Jul 18, 2012 20:18:59 GMT -6
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Post by cadriel on Jul 18, 2012 20:21:41 GMT -6
Judging by the terminology, standard rations should be food you have to cook - maybe beans, stew, soup, bread, sort of chuck wagon type fare that you heat over the camp fire. This would presumably spoil easily in the atmosphere of the dungeon and not be prepared if you holed up in a dungeon area. Iron rations should be dried meat, hard cheese and hardtack or similar, all stuff that can survive a long period of time and is hopefully in some preservative container. You can eat it without actually having to cook it, which is a big deal, but you're not exactly going to be ravenous over it.
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Post by Necropraxis on Jul 18, 2012 20:43:47 GMT -6
I would also add that standard ration are no doubt more palatable than iron rations, and therefore more likely to distract pursuing monsters when dropped. Excellent point. This game, it has so many moving parts! :-)
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 18, 2012 20:44:51 GMT -6
The way I see it, standard "rations" are normal meals, fresh fruit, roast meat and vegies, pies, bread, butter, cheese, milk, ale, and so on. These are generally prepared and consumed on demand, though they might possible keep for a day or two in a kitchen. These are relatively cheap and bulky, and are generally available at any inn or kitchen and are satisfying fare. On the other hand, iron rations are dried, salted and hard. They are made to keep and travel first, not to taste good. They will last more or less indefinitely, even in a backpack. These are relatively expensive and non-bulky, are generally less available and unsatisfying compared to standard fare. They will keep you alive, no more. I really like Dubeers' comment on morale Regarding the 1% of XP rule given in the 3LBBs; I don't think it works very well for beginning PCs (who can initially live for free, or very little). If you assume that all XP are earned from gold and there are no other expenses (!), then a PC can afford to live for 100 weeks at this rate. Accounting for non-treasure XP, taxes, other expenses, and the fact that PCs probably won't want to liquidate their most valuable treasures (magic items), it is probably closer to 10 weeks.
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Post by Necropraxis on Jul 18, 2012 20:47:11 GMT -6
Judging by the terminology, standard rations should be food you have to cook Also relevant to chances of attracting wandering monsters, perhaps (cookfires and all that, which would be more difficult to prepare in most dungeons, being unable to scavenge for firewood and kindling).
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Post by cadriel on Jul 18, 2012 20:50:54 GMT -6
Also relevant to chances of attracting wandering monsters, perhaps (cookfires and all that, which would be more difficult to prepare in most dungeons, being unable to scavenge for firewood and kindling). Yep, very true - of course with the morale impact it's a live question, do you observe a careful "no fires" policy, lower your chance of getting attacked but have unhappy henchmen, or do you start a fire, have some good and cheap food, get everybody happy, but risk an attack?
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Post by Jonathan Miller on Jul 18, 2012 22:21:17 GMT -6
Also relevant to chances of attracting wandering monsters, perhaps (cookfires and all that, which would be more difficult to prepare in most dungeons, being unable to scavenge for firewood and kindling). This is an excellent point. Cooking in the wilderness should be a great way of attracting wandering monsters. Is cooking in a dungeon even feasible? There is a 1 in 6 chance per movement turn of encountering a wandering monster. It would take at least an hour to cook and eat a meal (and likely more), right? And cooking should, if anything, increase the chance of a wandering monster. The meal would never finish for all of the monstrous interruptions. But, it's not clear that standard rations must be cooked. If standard rations could consist of normal bread, smoked meat (such as sausage), cheese, and pickled vegetables, then no cooking is needed. It becomes necessary to decide what, exactly, the term "standard rations" means.
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Post by aldarron on Jul 19, 2012 13:13:19 GMT -6
Iron ration is a late 19th century britsh military term derived from the German (Franco-Prussian war) "Eiserne Portion" to refer to emergency food kept in a small can for personal consumption. With variation, the Iron Ration consists of:
biscuit; preserved meat or bacon; preserved vegetables; cheese; tea or coffee; salt.
It's advantage over standard rations is that it is an individual portion and will keep for a very, very long time in the "iron" can.
Standard rations can be anything, including the same as things as in iron rations, but not kept in cans or pre-divided into individual portions.
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Post by aher on Jul 19, 2012 16:32:30 GMT -6
Basic D&D keeps the same prices for standard (5gp) and iron (15gp) rations, but adds the following rules about spoilage (RC, p.69): Standard rations: [...] They will last up to a week when the characters are traveling outdoors. Carried into a dank, unhealthy dungeon, they spoil overnight.
Iron rations: [...] [T]hey last for two months (eight weeks) in normal travel and up to a week in bad conditons (such as dungeons).
Deutsche Wikipedia has an article on Eiserne Ration. My reading of the article is that the default portion was 300g of bread (one pack of hard biscuits, crisp bread, or crackers), 200g meat (e.g., sausage), 150g veggies (e.g., vegetable stew or peas), and 20g sachet of coffee powder. Note that the coffee was "powder," implying you would also need to have a supply of potable water that you would have to bring to a boil in order to prepare it. However, in a fantasy setting, there might be magical means of boiling water without starting an actual fire. The article emphasizes that iron rations were really for emergency use only, and supplies were limited. In a fantasy setting, supplies available for purchase in town might be limited, forcing players to buy them in conjunction with a larger supply of standard rations. Perhaps the players could leave their standard rations outside the dungeon--hidden, buried, or left in the trust of hirelings--and only carry a small number of iron rations with them into the dungeon for emergencies. The article says iron rations were shelf stable for 36 months, much longer than in Basic D&D. Interestingly, there were also iron rations for horses consisting of 5kg of oats.
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Post by sepulchre on Dec 26, 2012 17:47:03 GMT -6
Aher wrote, 'Basic D&D...adds the following rules about spoilage (69 RC)..Deutsche Wikipedia has an article on Eiserne Ration'. Thanks for this interesting post!
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Post by cooper on Dec 26, 2012 17:54:10 GMT -6
This is an excellent point. Cooking in the wilderness should be a great way of attracting wandering monsters. Is cooking in a dungeon even feasible? There is a 1 in 6 chance per movement turn of encountering a wandering monster. It would take at least an hour to cook and eat a meal (and likely more), right? And cooking should, if anything, increase the chance of a wandering monster. The meal would never finish for all of the monstrous interruptions. A movement turn out doors is 1 day. So, a party is looking at 1 wandering encounter--not necissarily with monsters, once per week. as to wether a campfire would attrack monsters, I will quote papersandpaychecks from over at knights and knaves. Short answer; a campfire you or I would make, would not look like a campfire a viking age man would make:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2012 18:33:49 GMT -6
Just for info, having talked to Gary about it, D&D style "iron rations" are things like double baked bread, dry sausage, and hard cheese. Note that some medieval hard cheeses were so hard they had to be broken up with a hammer and soaked in water before you could eat them, and the dry sausage was like jerky except tough and dry.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 26, 2012 20:36:21 GMT -6
Possibly ship's biscuit could be included, which also had to be soaked in liquid to make it edible. Elves and dwarves might have more palatable versions, of course.
In B/X I generally treated normal rations as good for a week, after which you had to forage or rely on iron rations. Didn't think to bother with morale effects, though (and I'm still not sure that I would now). I guess you could introduce disease or malnutrition after subsisting on iron rations for a while if you wanted that level of detail.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2012 20:59:44 GMT -6
... and K Rations!
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Post by aldarron on Dec 31, 2012 11:28:38 GMT -6
About the only thing I can find to agree with in that statement is that building a fire is normal. I build fires all the time. I don't think I'm unique in that regard, at least not on this continent. I've also excavated scores of Native American and colonial hearths , and about half a dozen medieval hearths, (viking and iriish), and watched native Filipinos build cookfires. Just like "modern people" fires these traditional fires range in size from large bonfires to small cooking fires. Yeah, some "pre-modern" fires were built in constructed hearths, usually indoors. Outdoor fires are usually found right on the ground. Keep in mind, people did not have chainsaws or carry bandsaws into the woods, or shovels either. Typically, pre-modern outdoor fires were built right on the ground useing whatever deadwood can be gathered up. People did not take time to dig holes or build windbreaks or anything else aside from sometimes a stone or two to set a pot on. Neither is the wood cut or split like modern fireplace logs for campfires. Smaller sticks can be broken up by hand and foot or the back of an axe, and that's fine for a little temporary cook fire for one person to roast a rabbit or a fish but for larger campfires thicker logs are usually laid in and pushed forward as they burn. Either fire will make enough smoke to be smelled by anyone within a couple hundred yards, especially with a monsters sense of smell. The fire will also produce visible smoke you can see when it isn't hot; that is when it is first started and as it burns down before going out, or if the wood is somewhat damp or green as it often will be when gathered from the woods. In short, there is no such thing as a fire that won't increase your chances of being noticed to at least some degree. Sorry for the off topic rant.
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