Can Adventuring Spell Books be used as "Scrolls"?

[idrahil]

Didn't know where to put this because I don't have the original rules so I'm not sure if this is covered in them.

But, have you ever allowed a magic-user to use his spell book as a scroll? Meaning, in an emergency, he reads the spell off from his book and it disappears from the pages (Rather than memorizing it).

[Deleted]

I don't remember if it's in the little brown books, but I'd allow it purely because of the sheer agony I can inflict in the process of the magic user rescribing that spell.

[simonw]

In the game I'm currently working on (Crimson Blades) I'm allowing sorcerers to memorize spells or cast them directly by reading them from their spellbooks (grimoires). They don't disappear (I never did get that) but there are risks with carrying your spellbook around with you. Not only that, but you need to get your spellbook out (in a rush, in the dark, under pressure that's difficult) and then find the right spell (more time). I would say D6 melee rounds before you can get your spell off. then, as I said, your book is precious and it's likely to get dropped, damaged, lost etc. Is it worth the risk?

[Zenopus]

I don't think there's anything in the original rules that cover this, or even the original AD&D books. It wasn't until Unearthed Arcana that this was covered in a D&D rulebook. In those rules Gygax allowed casting from spellbooks, but with a small chance of erasing additional pages or even the entire book.

You could certainly rule that scrolls & spell books are interchangeable in your game. My further thoughts on this for the Basic Set: The Scroll Spellbook.

[jdjarvis]

Sure, but the spell goes bye bye and that's bad. It's a desperate last gasp move and I suppose a DM could be a hardass and require the read magic spell to be used to cast as if a scroll from the spell book.

[waysoftheearth]

FWIW, I allow casting from spellbooks. It can be quite helpful to the 1st level M-U.

O' course, spellbooks cost approximately double what scrolls do per spell (clerical spellbooks, if you use them, are even more expensive per spell). Scrolls are 100 gp per spell level, while spellbooks are 2,000 gp per spell level. So a spellbook of eight 1st level spells is 250 gp per 1st level spell, while a spellbook of 14 3rd level spells is 570 gp per 3rd level spell.

The complimentary question is whether or not the magical-types can also memorise spells from scrolls. I.e., are spellbooks effectively just "packages" of scrolls?

[Stormcrow]

But only wizards can write scrolls, while any magic-user can write a spellbook. You can't simply compare costs.

Scrolls and spellbooks are completely different things. Scrolls are spells "memorized" on paper (or parchment, or whatever). Any magic-user can cast any spell on a scroll; level is not a limiting factor. Casting from a scroll triggers the spell and, just like memorizing one, it disappears after use.

Spellbooks, on the other hand, do not contain written, "memorized" spells; they contain the tools and notes necessary to memorize a spell. They're not like computer files, either, being copied exactly from source to source. A magic-user KNOWS a spell, and can, just from his knowledge, write a spell into his spellbook. If he loses his spellbook he doesn't need to find someone else's spellbook to get back his Sleep spell; he can create a new spellbook and write Sleep into it.

If I were to allow casting from a spellbook, I would require the casting time to be extended: segments become rounds, rounds become turns, turns become days. It doesn't make sense to me that the spell would disappear from the book, because the book doesn't contain a prepared spell that gets discharged. However, this would make casting from spellbooks far too useful; some other counter to this would need to be devised. Perhaps casting directly from a spellbook gives a chance for the magic-user to go insane, at least temporarily (e.g., until he gets a week of rest in a safe haven).

[jcstephens]

In my Paleo-Vancian view spells are living things, that dwell in the spellbooks the way pigeons dwell in their coops. When you 'memorize' spells you are inviting them out of their book and into your head. when you cast one it comes out, does it's thing, and flies home.

The good news is that if you carry your spellbooks with you you get unlimited casting of the spells within (though only one casting may be active at a time). The bad news is that there's no such thing as a 'backup' spellbook, so if anything goes wrong you lose everything. Since in my campaigns I put much emphasis on spell research and discovery, losing one's spellbooks is a catastrophe equal to multiple level draining. The only time it's happened is NPC spellcasters in the final defense of their lair.

[bestialwarlust]

May 9, 2014 7:46:37 GMT -6 jcstephens said:

In my Paleo-Vancian view spells are living things, that dwell in the spellbooks the way pigeons dwell in their coops. When you 'memorize' spells you are inviting them out of their book and into your head. when you cast one it comes out, does it's thing, and flies home.

The good news is that if you carry your spellbooks with you you get unlimited casting of the spells within (though only one casting may be active at a time). The bad news is that there's no such thing as a 'backup' spellbook, so if anything goes wrong you lose everything. Since in my campaigns I put much emphasis on spell research and discovery, losing one's spellbooks is a catastrophe equal to multiple level draining. The only time it's happened is NPC spellcasters in the final defense of their lair.

Spells in my game have a similar philosophy. They are living "alien" entities that a magic user traps within his mind. When he casts he temporarily unleashes is which the side effect is the spell. From the the creature returns to it's dimension of existence.

[Deleted]

Well, Dave and Gary both believed that a large part of the game was that dealing with difficult choices was interesting and fun.

Therefore, I would handle this in a way that makes it a difficult choice.

So, yes. You can cast a spell from your spell book... and just like a scroll, it disappears.

But you cannot rescribe a spell back into your spell book unless you have it memorized. Once you cast a spell you literally no longer remember how to cast it.

If you don't have it memorized, you can always copy it over from another magic user's spell book... provided they let you. Oh, they well may let you... for a price.

Of course, you could try to find your old master as well... although she may consider that her obligation to you was fulfilled the FIRST time she let you copy a spell over.

[Deleted]

May 9, 2014 11:23:46 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Well, Dave and Gary both believed that a large part of the game was that dealing with difficult choices was interesting and fun.

Therefore, I would handle this in a way that makes it a difficult choice.

So, yes. You can cast a spell from your spell book... and just like a scroll, it disappears.

But you cannot rescribe a spell back into your spell book unless you have it memorized. Once you cast a spell you literally no longer remember how to cast it.

If you don't have it memorized, you can always copy it over from another magic user's spell book... provided they let you. Oh, they well may let you... for a price.

Of course, you could try to find your old master as well... although she may consider that her obligation to you was fulfilled the FIRST time she let you copy a spell over.

Fantastic, great way to do it Mike!

[idrahil]

Very cool ideas everyone! Lots to think about. Its funny how I never thought to do such a thing in all my years of playing. Instead my daughter asked the question last weekend.

[waysoftheearth]

May 9, 2014 6:22:14 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

But only wizards can write scrolls, while any magic-user can write a spellbook. You can't simply compare costs.

Like so many things, this depends on which rule you favour.
Holmes (concerning 1st thru 3rd level characters) says:

Magic users may make a scroll of a spell they already "know" (i.e. have in their magic book) at a cost of 100 gold pieces and 1 week's work for each spell level

(p13)

[talysman]

I take the opposite approach and make spellbooks different than scrolls... But allow casting from spellbooks. It just takes a lot longer and has a chance of going wrong if you can't memorize it as normal. So, basically, same reasoning as Gronan: anything that leads to more complications for characters (rather than players) is a Good Thing.