Keps
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 118
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Post by Keps on Jul 11, 2014 18:54:44 GMT -6
I don't know if anyone else here shares my concerns and opinions. I do not. This hobby is extremely cheap. XBOX games $65each x3-4/year. Fishing boat/poles/tackle  Shotguns/ammo/gear ? Home improvement...tools/materials ?? I mean, what the hell are you complaining about? Sports hobbies...Golfing is at least $35 a pop... a game ticket is minimum $50. This is your hobby and it's really freaking cheap. In stead of hitting Burger King for lunch, you can buy a set of dice. |
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Post by hagbard on Jul 12, 2014 14:10:43 GMT -6
I'm not sure why anyone would buy the 5e PHB and DMG when they come out. The rules are available for free online right now.
I actually am playing a session tomorrow, and haven't spent a dime.
Maybe the people buying the books really dig all that played-out and non-interesting art of some dude swinging a sword and looking angry. Grr...
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Keps
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 118
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Post by Keps on Jul 12, 2014 20:14:13 GMT -6
I'm not sure why anyone would buy the 5e PHB and DMG when they come out. The rules are available for free online right now. I actually am playing a session tomorrow, and haven't spent a dime. Maybe the people buying the books really dig all that played-out and non-interesting art of some dude swinging a sword and looking angry. Grr... It's my hobby. They're cheap. More rules. More everything. I collect books related to my hobby. I want the hobby to do well. Probably several other reasons I'll be glad to have them when they arrive. I do like how you imagine someone buying them for the art. TSR reprinted their entire line(starting with the Red Box)when Larry Elmore's art was discovered. That clearly wasn't where you began or why. |
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Post by hagbard on Jul 13, 2014 7:01:00 GMT -6
I'm not sure why anyone would buy the 5e PHB and DMG when they come out. The rules are available for free online right now. I actually am playing a session tomorrow, and haven't spent a dime. Maybe the people buying the books really dig all that played-out and non-interesting art of some dude swinging a sword and looking angry. Grr... It's my hobby. They're cheap. More rules. More everything. I collect books related to my hobby. I want the hobby to do well. Probably several other reasons I'll be glad to have them when they arrive. I do like how you imagine someone buying them for the art. TSR reprinted their entire line(starting with the Red Box)when Larry Elmore's art was discovered. That clearly wasn't where you began or why. WotC charging what the intend to charge for their new books borders on thievery; what else could they put in the rules that would warrant actually purchasing them? Sorry, I don't feel the need to purchase something that's freely available, especially at those prices. My money is better spent on independent and smaller publishers who actually have imaginative and true creative products. WotC will do just fine without my 150 dollars. |
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 13, 2014 19:28:55 GMT -6
About the only edition of D&D I'd even consider buying "for the art" would be the first printings of 1e - Sutherland, Trampier, Tom Wham, Errol Otus.
I don't think anyone sane would go and dump $150+ on gaming books "for the art". Art is gravy.
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 13, 2014 19:57:15 GMT -6
WotC charging what the intend to charge for their new books borders on thievery; what else could they put in the rules that would warrant actually purchasing them? "Thievery" is a bit strong - as I pointed out earlier on this thread, in real dollars the core books these days don't cost a whole lot more than the LBBs did back in 1975. Admittedly the dynamics have changed - WOTC releases the core core rules for free, you can get your fan material off the internet rather than waiting weeks for the newest newsletter, and there are tons of systems to choose from rather than one. |
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Post by Falconer on Jul 13, 2014 23:16:47 GMT -6
I don't think anyone sane would go and dump $150+ on gaming books "for the art". Art is gravy. Having enough RPG material to last a lifetime, that sort of gravy is exactly what I *would* be willing to spend money on. Have you guys seen the OSRIC Player’s Guide illustrated by Steve Robertson? It’s a work of art. Benoist’s maps are also gorgeous. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 23:35:19 GMT -6
This thread is odd... the player investment for any RPG is paper, a pencil, and some snacks to share. Every player does not need a copy of the rules. The more complicated the rules the better things work if the players have read the rules, but other than investment of time to read them you don't really need a copy of the rules for every player. There are lots of free pdf alternatives out there for several RPGs that are completely legal. A printed copy is nice but you don't need those for everyone. This has been a factor in virtually every RPG forum I've been involved in over the past ten years. RPGers as a group seem to be the cheapest barstads I've ever met. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 23:37:27 GMT -6
I don't know if anyone else here shares my concerns and opinions. I do not. This hobby is extremely cheap. XBOX games $65each x3-4/year. Fishing boat/poles/tackle Shotguns/ammo/gear ? Home improvement...tools/materials ?? I mean, what the hell are you complaining about? Sports hobbies...Golfing is at least $35 a pop... a game ticket is minimum $50. This is your hobby and it's really freaking cheap. In stead of hitting Burger King for lunch, you can buy a set of dice. Exactly. Renting a sailboat starts at about $100 per day. A decent model railroad locomotive costs $200 for one engine. Maybe since people got started when they were in fourth grade, they expect it to cost what it cost when they were in fourth grade? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2014 23:38:35 GMT -6
WotC charging what the intend to charge for their new books borders on thievery; what else could they put in the rules that would warrant actually purchasing them? Sorry, I don't feel the need to purchase something that's freely available, especially at those prices. My money is better spent on independent and smaller publishers who actually have imaginative and true creative products. WotC will do just fine without my 150 dollars. Thievery my butt. That's what's called "smart pricing for a luxury good." And yes, WOTC **WILL** do just fine without you. |
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Post by jakdethe on Jul 14, 2014 4:30:22 GMT -6
It seems no one read the entirety of my first post, or at least failed to comprehend my point. In fact many are proving it. I extolled the virtues of old school gaming, stating that is why I fell in love with the hobby. My concern was that publishers in the OSR are heading towards the "Premium, Limited Run, Leather Bound, Ultimate Collectors Editions", and that in my other hobbies you are considered a detriment for not wanting to spend tons of money. Now here I am being chided for being "cheap" and unreasonable. Point proven, I'd say.
Edit: This was obviously not directed towards those of you with a sympathetic ear, or helpful suggestions.
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Post by hagbard on Jul 14, 2014 6:49:19 GMT -6
It seems no one read the entirety of my first post, or at least failed to comprehend my point. In fact many are proving it. I extolled the virtues of old school gaming, stating that is why I fell in love with the hobby. My concern was that publishers in the OSR are heading towards the "Premium, Limited Run, Leather Bound, Ultimate Collectors Editions", and that in my other hobbies you are considered a detriment for not wanting to spend tons of money. Now here I am being chided for being "cheap" and unreasonable. Point proven, I'd say. I see your reasoning completely. I think the 'collector mentality' in any hobby is very detrimental. Take a look at early 90's comic book industry. All the way through the 70s and 80s we enjoyed some great storytelling while not having fancy production values, and as soon as the collectors moved in towards the beginning of the 90s, the industry began catering to them by making super-embossed covers, silver foil edition stamped editions, and whatnot. Storytelling, which made comic books so awesome took a back seat. The market crashed, and the companies had to sell out to large media companies and change their approach. Gaming is no different. I look at companies like WOTC, FFG, and GW with scorn because they seem to be more interested in catering to the collector by putting way too much thought into the materials their products are presented on because the content is bland. The companies with skin in the game that aren't as large feel compelled to play keep-up with the big guys, which is a huge mistake. |
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Post by jakdethe on Jul 14, 2014 6:54:16 GMT -6
I look at companies like WOTC, FFG, and GW with scorn because they seem to be more interested in catering to the collector by putting way too much thought into the materials their products are presented on because the content is bland. You hit the nail on the head man. My DM recently picked up an FFG rpg (Star Wars), and man it was so disappointing. The same with D&D NEXT from WOTC. The darn PDF is so image heavy from the stupid imposed background I can barely read through it without adobe freezing every page turn. I had the same problem with Castles & Crusades 5E and Swords & Wizardry's new monster books. |
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Post by hagbard on Jul 14, 2014 7:00:29 GMT -6
WotC charging what the intend to charge for their new books borders on thievery; what else could they put in the rules that would warrant actually purchasing them? "Thievery" is a bit strong - as I pointed out earlier on this thread, in real dollars the core books these days don't cost a whole lot more than the LBBs did back in 1975. Admittedly the dynamics have changed - WOTC releases the core core rules for free, you can get your fan material off the internet rather than waiting weeks for the newest newsletter, and there are tons of systems to choose from rather than one. That is true, it is maybe a tad strong. I do 'kind of' understand where WOTC is going with this approach of giving the core rules out for free; it's more of a stab at Paizo. What I think is WOTC is saying to them, 'hey, we're D&D, and we can ride off our name alone. Here's the core rules for free." and a new player who's looking at PF and D&D will say to himself, 'I can begin playing D&D right off the bat with nothing out of my pocket', where there's more of a barrier to entry with PF. I guess their strategy is going to go the attrition route. |
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Post by hagbard on Jul 14, 2014 7:03:38 GMT -6
jakdethe Avatar Jul 14, 2014 7:54:16 GMT -5 jakdethe said: hagbard Avatar Jul 14, 2014 7:49:19 GMT -5 hagbard said: I look at companies like WOTC, FFG, and GW with scorn because they seem to be more interested in catering to the collector by putting way too much thought into the materials their products are presented on because the content is bland. You hit the nail on the head man. My DM recently picked up an FFG rpg (Star Wars), and man it was so disappointing. The same with D&D NEXT from WOTC. The darn PDF is so image heavy from the stupid imposed background I can barely read through it without adobe freezing every page turn. I had the same problem with Castles & Crusades 5E and Swords & Wizardry's new monster books. Don't get me started on S&W's montrosity book, or whatever it's called. Worst 50 bucks I've spent in a long time. Half of all the pages are white space, it's like if they had condensed the thing down, it would only have been maybe a hundred and fifty pages at most. I weep for those poor trees...  |
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Post by jakdethe on Jul 14, 2014 7:16:12 GMT -6
Don't get me started on S&W's montrosity book, or whatever it's called. Worst 50 bucks I've spent in a long time. Half of all the pages are white space, it's like if they had condensed the thing down, it would only have been maybe a hundred and fifty pages at most. I weep for those poor trees... I really wanted to grab that and Tome of Horrors. I'm so glad I didn't grab the print editions. |
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Post by Falconer on Jul 14, 2014 9:24:42 GMT -6
You can still get the pre-FGG version of the Swords & Wizardy Monster Book on Lulu, just FYI. |
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Post by kirbyfan63 on Jul 14, 2014 13:07:52 GMT -6
I don't know if anyone else here shares my concerns and opinions. I do not. This hobby is extremely cheap. XBOX games $65each x3-4/year. 65 is actually pretty cheap, back in the 80's video games were 50 bucks, so accounting for inflation they have gone down even as they have been improving (at least technical specification wise). RPG's on the other hand are basically the same price they always were and really haven't changed at all. |
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Post by havard on Jul 14, 2014 15:13:35 GMT -6
I do not. This hobby is extremely cheap. XBOX games $65each x3-4/year. 65 is actually pretty cheap, back in the 80's video games were 50 bucks, so accounting for inflation they have gone down even as they have been improving (at least technical specification wise). RPG's on the other hand are basically the same price they always were and really haven't changed at all. Another great things about RPGs is that not every player in the group needs to buy the books. You really only need one set of rulebooks, so everyone in the group could pitch in if resources are limited. -Havard |
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 14, 2014 17:28:57 GMT -6
You know, now that I think about it the other RPG I *MIGHT* consider putting out my shekels for based exclusively on art would be a re-do of Empire Of The Petal Throne (the old TSR version) with scads of Prof. Barker's and DAT's artwork.
You want beautiful maps? Look at the Professor's map of, I think it was Jakalla, in the style of old medieval city maps. MAR was a hell of an artist; makes me jealous not that he could do so many things but do them all so d**n WELL.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 18:45:49 GMT -6
It seems no one read the entirety of my first post, or at least failed to comprehend my point. In fact many are proving it. I extolled the virtues of old school gaming, stating that is why I fell in love with the hobby. My concern was that publishers in the OSR are heading towards the "Premium, Limited Run, Leather Bound, Ultimate Collectors Editions", and that in my other hobbies you are considered a detriment for not wanting to spend tons of money. Now here I am being chided for being "cheap" and unreasonable. Point proven, I'd say. Edit: This was obviously not directed towards those of you with a sympathetic ear, or helpful suggestions. Hobbies... any hobby of any kind... is a luxury expenditure. Intro to Econ I will teach you that the way you price luxury goods is to continue raising the price until the total revenue curve starts to decline. EVERYBODY is going to head for premium limited run etc etc etc because that's what you do with luxury goods to justify increasing price. By going to limited runs you artificially increase demand. People are faced with either going along with this, and then emotionally justifying their decisions, or not going along with it. Me, I haven't bought a D&D product since the 1st Edition AD&D DMG came out in 1981. No, I tell a lie. I bought one module back in the early 2000s. But I don't spend money on D&D, and if anybody tells me I'm a "detriment for not wanting to spend tons of money," I will provide them with a comprehensive list of parts of my anatomy that they can lick. The problem is not that you're cheap, it's that you care what other people think about how you participate in the hobby. |
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Post by geoffrey on Jul 14, 2014 20:03:06 GMT -6
You know, now that I think about it the other RPG I *MIGHT* consider putting out my shekels for based exclusively on art would be a re-do of Empire Of The Petal Throne (the old TSR version) with scads of Prof. Barker's and DAT's artwork. You want beautiful maps? Look at the Professor's map of, I think it was Jakalla, in the style of old medieval city maps. MAR was a hell of an artist; makes me jealous not that he could do so many things but do them all so d**n WELL. Yeah, and where in the name of all the Gods of Stability and of Change are Prof. Barker's dungeons? IIRC, they were supposed to be published around the time of his death, which understandably delayed things. But he has been in Heaven now for nearly two and a half years... |
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Post by Falconer on Jul 14, 2014 20:19:54 GMT -6
I keep bumping its thread… Victor keeps showing off the maps at Cons…
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 14, 2014 22:18:09 GMT -6
Of course, gronan, you have the advantage that when some wet-eared wanker whines at you about "what you've done for the hobby" you can just cross your arms, smile and say "I HELPED CREATE THE DANG THING, SUNSHINE!".
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Post by jakdethe on Jul 15, 2014 4:08:10 GMT -6
I honestly don't care what other people think. I started this thread to vent, because I asked some people for advice and was mocked for my style of participation. I came here to vent, and then had more people spouting off insulting and ignorant comments. Not the majority thankfully. My only recourse is response and explanation, or withdrawal from discussion (my previous choice for some time).
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Post by coffee on Jul 15, 2014 8:05:52 GMT -6
I honestly don't care what other people think. I started this thread to vent, because I asked some people for advice and was mocked for my style of participation. I came here to vent, and then had more people spouting off insulting and ignorant comments. Not the majority thankfully. My only recourse is response and explanation, or withdrawal from discussion (my previous choice for some time). I still agree with your original post. I've always been cheap, but I've spent a lot of money on D&D/RPG products over the years. All of the money I spent was voluntary; nobody put a gun to my head. As Gronan said, it's a hobby. I do it because I like it, not because somebody else doesn't think I spend enough. |
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Post by jakdethe on Jul 15, 2014 8:41:42 GMT -6
Agreed completely coffee. Let me clarify my original point. It's disheartening when a hobby shifts from a large variety of options, and cheap alternatives, to a focus on a collector's market and special editions. OD&D started with little booklets and cheap supplements like Booty and Beasts, and Arduin. Now it's almost entirely composed of hardcover, full color, 300+ page books; the OSR being now joining this trend (Swords & Wizardry as a prime example).
I'm in no way averse to spending money, and when it's appropriate I love to (I recently purchased both Blood & Treasure as well as Adventures Dark & Deep).
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Post by ffilz on Jul 15, 2014 9:13:30 GMT -6
I honestly don't care what other people think. I started this thread to vent, because I asked some people for advice and was mocked for my style of participation. I came here to vent, and then had more people spouting off insulting and ignorant comments. Not the majority thankfully. My only recourse is response and explanation, or withdrawal from discussion (my previous choice for some time). I guess I didn't quite get that from your original post. I can definitely agree, people who put others down because they aren't buying all the bells and whistles for their hobby are annoying. For the rest of us, fortunately, RPGs are a hobby that CAN be enjoyed relatively cheaply (even almost free if you hunt around). Certainly there are some hobbies where the minimum entry price for participation is hundreds of dollars (though even some (many?) of those you can borrow equipment (or get invited to join someone on their sailboat...) if you are a casual participant or just want to try it out). Frank |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 9:45:21 GMT -6
My DM recently picked up an FFG rpg (Star Wars), and man it was so disappointing. What did you find disappointing about the FFG Star Wars game? It does look great and the game can work if you ignore most of the bad GMing advice. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of RPGs are bought and never played. So, in some respects, the art is more important than the game. That's not FFG's fault. |
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Post by dukeofchutney on Jul 15, 2014 11:38:54 GMT -6
Are collectors products that common. I know they exist, but its not exactly as though WOTC are pumping them out and FFG don't have any collectors editions as far as I am aware. The only recent ones i can think of are Goodmans DCC special covers and their new reprint of Meta Alpha.
This board, in my opinion, isn't really that representative of the majority of the hobby in my experience. Most of the Gms i know, and possibly players too, prefer written adventures, complete detailed rulesets, and lots of art to show them what they should be imagining. They prefer games based on the likes of Starwars and A Game of Thrones because the visual look of those worlds has been clearly communicated to them through film and TV. Consequently successful high selling rpgs tend to have a lot of glitzy modern art, and a product line of support materials so a GM can run the game for a long time and exercise minimal preparation and questionable imagination. This is the main market WOTC and FFG are catering for, and its a market that will gladly fork out the cash for a core rule book and a dozen support adventures and splat books. This model has been the case as far as i can tell, since the 80s with 2nd edition (possibly 1st later on too), the GURPS product line, and the White Wolf games.
I do think this view of roleplaying is unfortunate, but i blame the average consumer and not the companies. If we had a market that demanded a genuinely quality well written and imagined rule set at a reasonable price we would more than likely get it. £30 for a core book i don't think is excessive, but it is for if you have to buy 3 books (read 5e). But given that the average consumer (at least the ones i know) want three books rather than one it doesn't surprise me. A number of the gamers that buy books that i know basically buy everything in the product line regardless of whether or not they will ever use it. I suspect that it is this mentality that drives the marketing and product lines of rpgs.
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Shotguns/ammo/gear 
