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Post by Falconer on May 7, 2014 14:31:47 GMT -6
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Post by geoffrey on May 7, 2014 14:49:52 GMT -6
I'm into cycling, and there is always the pressure to have the latest, lightest, fastest, most high tech carbon fiber bicycle. If you ride with a cycling group, virtually everyone is dressed up in the space suit - the spandex, the fancy jersey, the ultra light carbon bike, etc. It's so bad that I find many cyclists seem to regard me with scorn, or assume I'm not a serious cyclist, because I choose to use a steel touring bicycle from the early 90's, and dress in regular clothes, and so forth. The bike is a small part of an equation, and a fat, out of shape rider is not going to significantly benefit from a bike that is 5 pounds lighter than mine. But everything is shifted to emphasize the clothes, the high tech bike, etc. Good for you! I find it weird that many people nowadays feel like they have to put on some sort of uniform just to ride a bike. I don't remember people ever doing that back when I was growing up. They just...rode a bike. |
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Post by cadriel on May 7, 2014 16:46:23 GMT -6
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Post by Malcadon on May 7, 2014 19:30:42 GMT -6
On the other hand, if you download them illegally, then it would not cost you a thing. Unless you want to print them, and that would set you back. Printer ink cartridges are rigged to short-change you and you cannot refill them -- making them nothing more then overpriced landfill-fillers! You'll be lucky to squeeze out a singe character sheet on a fresh cartridge without the printer giving you the "low ink" warning! So yeah, the illegal files would cost you nothing if you mothball them on your computer, but the cartridge would really set you back! >=(
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Post by machfront on May 7, 2014 20:34:06 GMT -6
Huh? When I navigate to those Amazon pages, the cheapest brand new copies of both including shipping is under 35 bucks. I know I'd rather pay much less than what the PF Core book (for example) goes for, but I'm not sure it's prohibitively expensive. When one compares inflation-adjusted price* and also factors in the cost of full color professional art, etc. I'd imagine it all falls in line more or less. *shrug* *According to usinflationcalculator.com the B/X box sets (that were $15 in 1981) would cost almost 40 bucks in today's dollars. An '83 Easley-cover PHB (then $20.00) would cost almost 47 bucks. The fact that something very similar, the C&C PHB, costs about $25 today shows that modern books are at pretty fair price points. |
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Post by archersix on May 7, 2014 21:36:02 GMT -6
I'd pay $40 for a brand new Moldvay Basic boxed set.
Haven't found one so I did the next best thing, IMHO and got into Labyrinth Lord. You can get pdfs of the rules for free, and print versions are reasonable. I got the softcovers of the revised edition and the advanced companion for around $40. They even have a 'Original Edition' book to let you get to what i understand to be a pretty good approximation of OD&D.
(extra bonus to Labyrinth Lord: Pig Faced Orcs :-) )
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Post by sulldawga on May 7, 2014 21:42:13 GMT -6
Weird that you typed in all of the retail prices, but linked to sites online where you can get substantial discounts. Why claim that the Pathfinder Core Rulebook is $49.99, just to pick one example, when you can follow the link you yourself provided and buy it on Amazon for $28.99? |
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Post by Finarvyn on May 8, 2014 5:56:42 GMT -6
Those were probably retail prices and not discount prices. When you buy a book through "Amazon used" they may give lots of choices, but those choices change as individual books are purchased and new ones are added. My guess is that Falconer was trying to give general costs and not quote the "best deal" which could be gone before a potential buyer clicks on the link. My best guess.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2014 7:18:02 GMT -6
I recently introduced a small crop of players to roleplaying with Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea in PDF for $10.
They run the Player's manual PDFs on their tablets, or print off small sections (like the details of the class they are playing, or the equipment list.)
I myself purchased the box set for $50 and can't say enough good about it.
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Post by Falconer on May 8, 2014 7:22:06 GMT -6
Yeah, I listed the MSRP, the price you would pay for a new book in a brick & mortar store (FLGS, Barnes & Noble, etc.). Of course you can find just about anything discounted on the internet—figure about 30% off—but it fluctuates, and if I posted the Amazon price today, people would be complaining tomorrow that it was incorrect (or that they know of a better deal elsewhere). I figured the links to Amazon or Noble Knight would be handy because you can find out a lot of information, including the MSRP, page count, previews, and, yes, discounted prices. Geez, I didn’t expect to get such a hard time about this.  |
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Post by DungeonDevil on May 13, 2014 4:01:25 GMT -6
D&D, well...all RPGs and even wargaming...have always been relatively expensive, elitist hobbies. I really wanted the AD&D hardback rulebooks and was crushed to find out that each was sold at around 30 USD. That's around 100 USD once you figured in tax. As a kid I didn't get an allowance, so that kind of money was obscene for a family trying to get through the energy crisis and other financial headaches. I just couldn't afford to get into the hobby until I was well into adulthood. And with the Unholy Blight that is "reality TV" there's nothing worth watching on the telly anymore. But don't despair: IMAGINATION IS FREE, and with a bit of creativity it is possible to work around such temporary obstacles such as chronic impecuniousness. |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 5:20:20 GMT -6
No love for the DCC RPG here? The prices are surely crafty, but it's a one-system book, and a very good one. I only DMed two DCC modules, ever, and, to be honest, never bought into the whole hype that surrounded Goodman Games, but this one's my favorite D&D derivate!  |
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Post by ravenheart87 on May 13, 2014 5:54:52 GMT -6
No love for the DCC RPG here? The prices are surely crafty, but it's a one-system book, and a very good one. I only DMed two DCC modules, ever, and, to be honest, never bought into the whole hype that surrounded Goodman Games, but this one's my favorite D&D derivate! 40$ for the DCC RPG core book is a really good price. It's an exceptionally good game with awesome art and the book is sturdy as hell. And I was lucky enough to get it with 4$ shipping fee when I pre-ordered. If you think the books are expensive, then imagine how nice it is to see the ridiculously high (20-60$) shipping prices to Europe in case of hardcovers and thick books. |
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idrahil
Level 6 Magician
The Lighter The Rules, The Better The Game!
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Post by idrahil on May 13, 2014 7:42:48 GMT -6
And with the Unholy Blight that is "reality TV" there's nothing worth watching on the telly anymore. But don't despair: IMAGINATION IS FREE, and with a bit of creativity it is possible to work around such temporary obstacles such as chronic impecuniousness. I wish there was an actual study done on role playing and kids. If a 6-7 year old kid diagnosed with ADHD can sit down at a table for 3-4 hours and pretend to be exploring caves, fighting giant snakes, finding treasure and relaxing at an inn; then there's "something special" about it |
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Post by ffilz on May 13, 2014 10:32:34 GMT -6
D&D, well...all RPGs and even wargaming...have always been relatively expensive, elitist hobbies. I really wanted the AD&D hardback rulebooks and was crushed to find out that each was sold at around 30 USD. That's around 100 USD once you figured in tax. As a kid I didn't get an allowance, so that kind of money was obscene for a family trying to get through the energy crisis and other financial headaches. I just couldn't afford to get into the hobby until I was well into adulthood. Hmm, was that 2E? Sure, AD&D was pretty expensive when it first came out, but you could still get OD&D for $10. Basic D&D was $10. The BECM Expert set I have is listed for $12 (so presumably the same for Basic). Hmm, according to this web site www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1732567/pg1, the average price of a movie ticket in 1977 was $2.23. In 1985 it was $3.55. So for the price of 4 or 5 kids going to the movies ONE afternoon, you could buy SOME form of D&D to get you started. Yes, you CAN spend gobs of money on RPGs, but it's also pretty economical if you just buy one set of rules and a handful of dice (you can even pass a single set of dice around the table). Over time, you can add dice and books, and still come out WAY ahead of going to the movies for a group of people. Of course our consumer culture has infiltrated the RPG hobby just as it has infiltrated EVERY aspect of our lives. You need the next RPG book NOW. You need this and that. If it was a bigger hobby, there would probably be specialty clothing for gaming... Frank |
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Post by Fearghus on May 13, 2014 15:17:05 GMT -6
I am not a purist, just an appreciator. It is understood that there is a cost to having a computer or cell phone with a data plan. With regard to being able to test a system, the following make it easy to get an understanding of 3.x systems (yes I understand you old farts prefer books, but the option is there).  System Reference Documents: 1. Pathfinder: paizo.com/prd/2. D20 (3.5): www.d20srd.org/There are also similar sites for AD&D and AD&D2e. Not being sure of their legality I will refrain from linking, but I am sure you can discover them with your Google-fu. |
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Post by Leonaru on May 13, 2014 17:18:31 GMT -6
Elitist hobby? Considering the months, if not years of fun I get out of a RPG books, I can't agree here.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2014 3:59:08 GMT -6
here are also similar sites for AD&D and AD&D2e. Not being sure of their legality I will refrain from linking, but I am sure you can discover them with your Google-fu. The the legal version of the former is the OSRIC wiki when it's online. knka.org/osricwiki |
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Post by DungeonDevil on May 27, 2014 16:03:39 GMT -6
Circa 1979-80, and it would have been AD&D. Granted there was only one gaming/hobby-oriented vendor in my part of the country, and they were offering the hardback rulebooks for about 30 USD each. In anguish I consoled myself with a red translucent set of polyhedrals that were close to 10 USD.  Very few kids in school had the books purely due to the expense -- not to mention the innate arcaneness (arcanity?) of the hobby in those days. |
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Post by ffilz on May 27, 2014 20:37:10 GMT -6
Hmm, $30 each in 1979-1980? That's quite a markup. PH and MM were $9.95 each list, DMG was $12 I think. With that price, I can understand thinking it very expensive.
Having got into the hobby in 1997, I didn't purchase things all at once. I got PH for Christmas '78, then bought MM and OCE over some time between Christmas and early summer '79, then the DMG in late summer '79.
I also had a paper route that netted me maybe $10-20 per week.
Frank
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Post by Zenopus on May 27, 2014 21:32:01 GMT -6
I still have my original AD&D books, and the DMG (efreet cover) has a price tag of $10.25 inside the front cover. The tag is from the aafes (Army & Air Force Exchange Service), where my dad purchased it for me in the spring of 1983. I believe I got the Fiend Folio for $1 (!) at KayBee toys that same spring when they were having a sale.
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jdjarvis
Level 4 Theurgist
Hmmm,,,, had two user names, I'll be using this one from now on.
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Post by jdjarvis on May 28, 2014 8:53:29 GMT -6
This thread is odd... the player investment for any RPG is paper, a pencil, and some snacks to share. Every player does not need a copy of the rules. The more complicated the rules the better things work if the players have read the rules, but other than investment of time to read them you don't really need a copy of the rules for every player.
There are lots of free pdf alternatives out there for several RPGs that are completely legal. A printed copy is nice but you don't need those for everyone.
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Post by inkmeister on Jun 3, 2014 9:23:45 GMT -6
I don't think the thread is odd. IT is true that you don't NEED expensive books to roleplay (you don't need anything to roleplay!). Yet look at the hobby; it is obvious that the hobby in general is built on the expectation of buying a lot of books and supplements. I think the thread is especially sensible because of the fact that this angle IS so unnecessary. It's not like the examples others have given, like cycling, or music, where a bicycle or music instrument is needed (unless you are a singer). You really need nothing to roleplay, and if you do decide to use randomizing elements (dice) and pencils and paper... we are looking at about 10$ for a whole group. As much as the net is dominated by discussions of house rules and the like, it seems like a serious aspect of the fun must be coming up with our own stuff. That's what the original roleplayers did. So to me it does seem odd that it is taken as a given that most of us are going to buy so much of what comes out. I'm not into that at all.
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Post by xerxez on Jun 12, 2014 18:02:16 GMT -6
The original post is great.
Inkmeister is correct--homebrew games or old cheapies are the best way to introduce people to the hobby, in my estimation.
I guess that's one of the things I love about the OSR community is the DIY vibe and the low cost of so many great game systems I have discovered here--the heart and the grassroots appeal in it is far more compelling to me than a shiny overpriced box of the latest re-invention of the wheel when it comes to r.p. games.
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
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Post by tog on Jun 29, 2014 20:00:12 GMT -6
I read an old (OOOOOOOOWWWWWWWLLLD) review of OD&D a couple days ago, and the reviewer was of the opinion that $3.50 for the original books and $10 for the boxed set was far too much to ask for a rules set.
Which, adjusted for inflation, is about the equivalent of $45 now. So, call it about $100 for the full set through Deities, Demigods & Heroes, maybe a copy of Swords & Spells as well if you wanted to do mass battles.
Is that too much? Or not enough?
Of course, we have a lot of options they didn't have back then; print-on-demand, PDF stores, printable miniatures, the OGL, and tablets.
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Post by ffilz on Jun 30, 2014 10:59:55 GMT -6
Hmm, looked through some of my old Wargamer's Digest magazines from 1974 and 1975. Some price ranges:
Avalon Hill Boardgames: $7.00
Angriff WWII Rulebook: $2.00
Fletcher Pratt's Naval Rules: $2.50
UK import rules: $3.95 to $12.95 (a Napoleonic rules set)
So yea, in comparison to some of what was out there, maybe a bit expensive. On the other hand, I readily plunked down $10 for Tractics in 1977 as a high school kid with a paper route (and eventually bought D&D and supplements once I got into D&D).
Bit something only the elite could get into? I think that's a very far stretch...
Frank
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Post by rsdean on Jun 30, 2014 15:51:13 GMT -6
Hmm, looked through some of my old Wargamer's Digest magazines from 1974 and 1975. Frank Was there a listing for a set of polyhedral dice? I'd think a set would be a practical minimum along with the 3LBB box. I checked the CPI for 1974-2013 myself earlier today; looked like the 4.5 was a shade low, but that was more than I was thinking. Anyway, game and dice in 2013 dollars ... ? I think of this as a cheap hobby, overalll... . |
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Post by ffilz on Jun 30, 2014 15:57:53 GMT -6
No, but I wasn't looking at TSR adds, I was just looking to see what other wargames around 1974-1976 cost for an idea of how D&D stacked up against others. In response to tog's post about the old review.
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Post by dukeofchutney on Jun 30, 2014 17:37:24 GMT -6
Roleplaying is one of the cheapest hobbies around. Yeah you can blow a lot of cash of expensive books you don't need. Or you can buy a copy of S&W and a cheap set of gaming dice off ebay and invent the rest yourself.
The bigger gaming companies have to support their full time writing staff, so their stuff will be pricey. In Wizards case they not only have to turn a profit, but also make enough money to show the bosses that Rpgs are still worth it when Magic prints money.
I know shipping costs have increased quite a way ahead of inflation over the past decade or two, i'm not so sure about printing costs but i suspect they might have too. So some of the price hikes might just economic realities rather than increased profiteering.
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Post by rsdean on Jul 1, 2014 12:29:54 GMT -6
Well, allergies must be inhibiting my mental ability. I realized that I had the price of dice as part of the ad copy on the back pages of my OD&D books. Dice were $2.50 a set. So, a set of dice and the originals would have cost $12.50 1974 dollars, or ~$58.75 2013 dollars.
Considering the hardback of Swords&Wizardry Complete covers the same territory (actually including some of the supplements) and costs $35 2014 dollars, it looks like you could make a case that publishing and shipping costs are below those of 1974.
The difference between the 35 and the 58 will get you a module and some dice as well.
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Very few kids in school had the books purely due to the expense -- not to mention the innate arcaneness (arcanity?) of the hobby in those days.
