|
|
Post by dwayanu on Jun 1, 2008 12:18:04 GMT -6
Wandering again ...
There's been a bit of controversy on fora and blogs over formation of some sort of "old-school players' association." One cadre of instigators, I gather, is convening this weekend to hash out a plan.
Interjecting myself into discussion, mainly at Knights & Knaves, I've felt myself a bit a "voice in the wilderness." I'm more than a bit less than a la mode with gaming and the internet, so a focus on the combo leaves me a bit out of my depth.
I recall Dave Hargrave's Arduin Grimoires (whence the thread's title) being invoked both in T&T's Sorcerer's Apprentice and RuneQuest's Wyrm's Footnotes.
The whole scene of "The One True Way" having jealously to be distinguished, to the point that folks argue over whether the proposed association might ever mention (say) C&C as well as AD&D, is a bit beyond me.
In a practical sense, I figure that either:
(A) It's close enough to call it "house-rules D&D" or
(B) It's not.
Back in the day, Arduin was (A) as far as enough folks were concerned to let it get a following.
Just wandering again ...
|
|
jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
|
Post by jrients on Jun 1, 2008 14:38:08 GMT -6
As one of the "instigators" let me state that the general opinion of the "cadre" is that there's no percentage in drawing a line in the sand and saying X game is old school and Y game is not. I know that's how I feel.
|
|
|
|
Post by crimhthanthegreat on Jun 1, 2008 14:55:35 GMT -6
I am not familiar with this and am curious, would you please post or pm links to those of us who are curious. Personally, without having yet read any arguments for or against, my gut reaction is that if those who are interested in old school gaming rally around Fight On! and support it or if it doesn't meet your needs then create your own, that is about all the association that is needed. Now please post or pm links so that I can read about this issue and learn more, if you would please. If this is a topic that is getting a lot of peoples dander up, perhaps we should just leave it on the other fora and blogs and go there for the discussion, although if it comes here, then civil and polite it should be.
My 2 coppers,
Crim
|
|
|
|
Post by greyharp on Jun 1, 2008 17:58:45 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by crimhthanthegreat on Jun 1, 2008 20:07:06 GMT -6
I don't understand what all the discussion is about. We need to get an OD&D clone completed and then those among us that can write and draw will hopefully start producing and selling OD&D adventures and other materials. Gygaxian D&D and Arnesonian D&D and (Insert name ian) D&D. It is all old school, just the use the clone to produce the flavor you want and put it up for sale. I would love to see a year from now 50 OD&D clone products at RPG Now and the like and two years from now 200 products available. I want to see huge numbers of people rediscovering OD&D. Now while the people producing these products under the ODL can't mention OD&D, those people that are not involved in the production end can write reviews and mention compatibility with and produced in the old school spirit of OD&D to their hearts content. Or at least that is how I understand it. I am not a lawyer and nothing I say is legal advice. But as I understand it, if I am not involved in creating, producing or publishing a product, I can write a review and say pretty much what I want. If that is correct, then the word can and will get out to the public about what the products really are and what you are really getting when you buy one.
|
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Jun 1, 2008 20:08:23 GMT -6
We've had our share of "is X old school....?" sorts of discussion here with no definitive answer, and I'm guessing that no one else will come up with one either.
Since OS is more of an attitude than a date, you can't really say "all games prior to ___ are OS". Some older games have a certain philosophy, other older games do not. Some of the recent games try to copy that philosophy and some think they do a grand job, others don't like the newer attempts to capture that old feel.
For me, OS might be "getting together with my high school buddies and gaming all weekend" and no matter how hard I try we've all moved on. I can try to copy that same style, but "getting together with my new married buddies and our wives and kids and gaming an evening every other week" is a little different and will never be the same.
In "the good old days" we created rules on the fly. We alternated who was DM so we could play for hours at a time. We didn't care if we had painted minis or just dice or RISK counters used to represent our characters. We never used modules but instead made our own adventures, drew our own maps, made our own worlds. Character sheets were 3x5 index cards. Those things mean "old school" to me a lot more than whether we were playing MERP or Runequest or Traveller or T&T or OD&D or AD&D or whatever.
Just me rambling. :-)
|
|
busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
|
Post by busman on Jun 1, 2008 21:32:15 GMT -6
After reading through all of the links from greyharp (thanks for putting it all in one place), I'm even more for an OSGA type forum. Then each faction of OOP D&D could have their own chunk of the group and an official banner under which all of the various factions could form up. That way the LL, OSRIC, and other supporters could all be under one roof and their collective power could be amassed for good (or awesome) without having to have a single rule set that failed to combine them all. Let the OSGA be ruleset blind. If the OSRIC people want to put together a free RPG day they can announce it via the OSGA and maybe gather support for others, same with the LL supporters, etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by dwayanu on Jun 1, 2008 21:42:43 GMT -6
To me, the sense of a friendly community of referees and players from a diverse variety of campaigns is part of the "old way." It was not so much about commercial brands. Bushido or Land of the Rising Sun might be too complex rules-wise for one's taste, but an article on Samurai adventure in (e.g.) Alarums & Excursions might still be of interest. (Yea, perhaps even to one playing a squirrel cyber-samurai!)
Now, the main intent of OSRIC was to facilitate commercial publication of modules easily compatible with 1st edition AD&D. Mechanical compatibility is no assurance of "old-school flavor" (which is a matter of taste). It is a relief from the huge "stat blocks" in "D20 System" products. Moreover, it is not too hard to use an AD&D module with OD&D (or vice-versa), or with a host of related games.
Economics is key to the feasibility of a commercial undertaking, and market size is a significant part of that. It may not make any difference to one's own campaign how popular similar-enough games are, but it makes a difference if one hopes to have a steady supply of commercially produced modules.
An association might muster resources to assist in promotion of the hobby, bringing in new players (and, as new referees, new potential module-buyers). Depending on whether one is a "joiner" or not, there might be personal pleasures in affiliation.
One thing that I (and apparently few others) consider most desirable is to reach beyond the existing, "ghettoized" cliques of self-defined "gamers" to a broader demographic. In the "good old days" as I recall them, RPG players came from many walks of life; most regarded the hobby not as a passion but as a pastime.
|
|
|
|
Post by greyharp on Jun 2, 2008 0:01:17 GMT -6
It seems to me that people here on this forum "get it". I'm not sure why others elsewhere are having trouble.
I have been more excited about rpg's in the last 12 months than I have in the last 20+ years. Retro-Clones, new D&D material being published, lots of creativity bursting forth all over the place, discovering the simplicity of OD&D, people wanting to bring new folk in (not just us middle-aged old gamer types), Fight On!, and so on. How can you not be excited?
;D
|
|
|
|
Post by dwayanu on Jun 2, 2008 0:30:21 GMT -6
Definitely!
I think this very site (thanks to Finarvyn!) is evidence of a certain "critical mass." One could pick out signs of resurgent interest in OD&D before, but they come together in a synergy here.
|
|
jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
|
Post by jrients on Jun 2, 2008 7:13:15 GMT -6
One thing that I (and apparently few others) consider most desirable is to reach beyond the existing, "ghettoized" cliques of self-defined "gamers" to a broader demographic. In the "good old days" as I recall them, RPG players came from many walks of life; most regarded the hobby not as a passion but as a pastime. I totally agree. It seems like somewhere along the way we've driven the casual players out of the hobby. I want them back. |
|
|
|
Post by hackman on Jun 2, 2008 17:16:33 GMT -6
This forum really can serve as a springboard for an association and further discussions of how to not only keep old school going, but even grow it. I think a key to this has been the availability of the original three brown books via rpg now and paizo. For me being able to look at them finally, even if the 6th printing or whatever is what really primed my brain. Old school, I'm not sure really it's an attitude for me of being open to whatever my brain comes up with. Now, a legal way to publish OD&D materials would be most welcome for me.
|
|
|
|
Post by dwayanu on Jun 2, 2008 17:30:59 GMT -6
It's as legal as ever ("fair use") to publish new OD&D adventures, monsters, and so on non-commercially. The game was designed as a tool for sharing such creations!
Existing "retro-clones" don't emulate OD&D exactly, but there's so much in common that I'll bet one could publish a quite adequate OD&D module with reference only to them.
For one thing, a common (and my preferred) format for monster encounters is simply to indicate "Goblins (8), Hit Points 1,2,2,2,3,3,4,5."
Actually, that example requires no "legal cover" at all. There's nothing in it that is anyone's "intellectual property." In fact, the only monster in the (post-Balrog) original set that strikes me as dicey is the Treant -- itself an Ent renamed for legal purposes.
I don't think the names of spells and magic items are distinctive enough to be "owned" without trademarks, but I would not want to test that. I don't think there's any need, with OSRIC at hand; if OD&D can misspell "dispel," then so can you!
|
|
|
|
Post by hellbender on Jun 3, 2008 10:08:25 GMT -6
As another instigator of the cause I think that a few people don't know exactly what the group is working on and a bit of sniping has come our way without having an idea of what we are about. Here is a snippet from our super-secret cabal:
"The AD&D 1E, OD&D, B/X D&D and BECMI/RC eras of gaming are discussed and ways to promote and preserve this style of gaming are the goal of this group.
The use of "retro-clone" games such as OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord and the Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game, which emulate this gaming era are also discussed."
Think of it as Gygaxian D&D & retro-clones in the style of Gygaxian D&D.
Here is a quote from me on K&K:
"If it sounds like a flimsy plan, that is fine, but trying to second-guess and/or twist every aspect of something as innocuous as this is perplexing. There is no "You are with us or you are against us" mentality here. There is no need to encompass every roleplaying game. The group formed due to wanting to stand behind Gygaxian D&D and that is that. It is oldschool, it is traditional it is not newschool and it is not everyone playing in the same sandbox. If people want to form other groups around older roleplaying games that is great and there can certainly be links forged between these groups. There is no commercial force behind this, members of each retro-clone publishing endeavor were invited for even representation and all of those guys have been totally professional. The idea is to help people out, in a variety of ways, to keeping an older style of gaming alive."
And from badger clarifying what we are and are not:
What we're about:
Planning game events
Doing demos
Helping gamers find games
Having fun
What we're not about:
Discussions of which game is more "old school" than any other
Running down or disparaging in any way a person's choice of traditional roleplaying game
It is really that simple. We aren't trolls, we aren't supporting any particular pre-2e version of D&D and everyone involved gets it and we are working together fine. If anything, in time we will branch out into other "classical" games like Gamma World, T&T, C&C, RuneQuest, etc. We are about helping people find games online and offline, or gaming material, or downloading a flyer to post at the local hobbystore or library, etc.
hellbender
|
|
busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
|
Post by busman on Jun 3, 2008 12:33:09 GMT -6
Think of it as Gygaxian D&D & retro-clones in the style of Gygaxian D&D. As long as Gygaxian doesn't exclude "Arnesonian" and "Barkerian" or even "Hargravian" then I couldn't be more excited and supportive of this movement. What we're about: Planning game events Doing demos Helping gamers find games Having fun What we're not about: Discussions of which game is more "old school" than any other Running down or disparaging in any way a person's choice of traditional roleplaying game This part sounds wonderful. |
|
|
|
Post by hellbender on Jun 3, 2008 13:39:37 GMT -6
As long as Gygaxian doesn't exclude "Arnesonian" and "Barkerian" or even "Hargravian" then I couldn't be more excited and supportive of this movement. That is the plan. The only reason why there isn't a formal statement yet is because we are still hashing out the details. Not because we are learning new dance moves in our goatskin pants. This part sounds wonderful. And fairly innocuous. The idea isn't to waste time arguing about what is "oldschool" or what isn't. The idea is to find ways to get people playing these games now and having fun doing it. Getting casual gamers more information, getting people who want back in a ticket by helping them out. |
|
