The Warg.

[Torreny]

For long I have pondered how to implement two features of the giant wolf in play for some time, and honestly, I couldnèt say why I hadnèt attempted to ask the world sooner.

The first is thus: what mechanical advantage (combat) should the creature get from carrying a goblin riderÉ Iève considered having them roll an extra die each in melee, have the gobbos also roll attacks in the same melee, and the last idea involved classing them up to medium horse for attack purposes. The first is my preferred method.

My second question regards the supposed combat abilities of the dire wolf in Fantastic Combat. Am I to believe they get two attacks (where others have one), but as menÉ (heroes...É) Was the intent rather that they make two attacks (as normal men) against non-Fantastic opponentsÉ

[Red Baron]

Ok. Fist lets look at Monsters&Treasure. No warg? no worg? how about wolf. No wolf either. hmmm...

Lets try chainmail instead.

GIANT WOLVES (including Wargs and Dire Wolves): These creatures are equal to Light Horse in attack and Medium Horse in movement. They can bear small creatures like Goblins on their backs, but this reduces their speed to that of Heavy Horse. In combat against fantastic opponents give them two attacks as men. They require a score equal to that necessary to kill a Wight to kill them.

So that gives us an: Attacks as light horse and defend as Wights (Heavy Horse). Moves as medium horse (18"). When mounted they have two attacks (the extra for the goblin rider) in fantastic combat and move as heavy horse (12"). Elves armed with magic swords require a six to hit on the fantastic combat table. They can also see in normal darkness.

Lets look back at M&T now. Even though heavy and light horse refer to a horse mounted rider, not the horse itself, I think we can make a rough approximation of a giant wolf by their equine counterparts. A heavy warhorse has 3 hit dice. For a horse attacks we are referenced back to chainmail.

So opening chainmail once again, we see that a light horse melees at one mace. ok.

Sooo....

A Giant Evil Wolf has 3 HD, 1 ATTACK, 18" MOVE. If it carries a goblin, It has two attacks, but its speed is reduced to 12".

[derv]

Why do you think Chainmail uses the Wight as a way of describing a Wargs defense instead of using HH and why does it specify "in combat against fantastic opponents" as opposed to "normal" opponents, since they are not found on the Fantasy Reference Table?

[jacar]

Dec 30, 2013 19:08:50 GMT -6 derv said:

Why do you think Chainmail uses the Wight as a way of describing a Wargs defense instead of using HH and why does it specify "in combat against fantastic opponents" as opposed to "normal" opponents, since they are not found on the Fantasy Reference Table?

Wargs are supposed to be some supernatural critters. They use Wights only because the power level is supposed to be the same. As strong as a Wight I suppose.

In my rewrite, wargs are light cavalry that get an extra die per figure when they have a mounted goblin.

[Red Baron]

Not Heavy Cavalry? Wargs and Warhorses seem fitting lawful/chaotic equals. Do chaotic heavy cavalry just ride black warhorses then, or do they get triceratops or something cool like that.

[derv]

Dec 30, 2013 20:32:27 GMT -6 jacar said:

Dec 30, 2013 19:08:50 GMT -6 derv said:

Why do you think Chainmail uses the Wight as a way of describing a Wargs defense instead of using HH and why does it specify "in combat against fantastic opponents" as opposed to "normal" opponents, since they are not found on the Fantasy Reference Table?

Wargs are supposed to be some supernatural critters. They use Wights only because the power level is supposed to be the same. As strong as a Wight I suppose.

In my rewrite, wargs are light cavalry that get an extra die per figure when they have a mounted goblin.

I was actually suggesting that these might be references to MtM and not the Mass Combat Table.

Since I've been looking at the Battle of 5 Armies article, I found it interesting that it presented the Warg as fighting and defending as HF. Goblins fight as HF and defend as LF. It also listed under "Chainmail Modifications" that Goblins could ride Wargs on a 1:1 basis. In doing so, they minus 3" off their movement rate. At the end of the article it offers up information for using the MtM tables- Wargs: equal to 2 daggers, leather armor. Goblins: sword, leather & shield.

.

[Torreny]

Well, Iève been mostly meaning to find out if there is a "more correct" way to represent the inclusion of the goblin rider in mass combat. Not looking to reverse engineer the LBBs. As for its position in Fantastic combat, Ièm aware it is defensively as the wight on the table. The fact the text says it attacks as two men against Fantastic opponents is useless information as normal men cannot engage in this type of combat. Certain parts of the text allude to "men honed by the fantasy supplement" (which I would mostly default to mean "heroes"), and I wouldnèt rule out the vague use of "men" here to potentially mean "hero-type men", given that it makes more sense than making two ineffectual attacks per round in Fantastic combat as normal men. However, some of the information does make sense when looking at the MtM side of things.

I appreciate the discussion developing. It seems like no one has bothered to address the situation before (at least that I could find).

[derv]

I feel the Chainmail description for the Warg leaves alot to be desired, but I'll attempt to throw out my views on the matter.

Mass Combat Tables:

The Warg alone attacks as LH and moves as MH. It's reasonable to infer that he defends as HH due to the Wight reference, but I'm not sure this is necessarily correct. Though I wouldn't argue the issue.

Q: What benefit does the Warg receive when used as a mount? I will give two answers.

A: none. In fact he is penalized in movement to HH. The benefit is to the rider who is mounted. In the case of a HF Goblin, he now becomes MH and gains the charge movement rate of HH. As a consequence, the Charge Morale rules will apply also.
A2: If it is insisted that the "two attacks as men" reference is applicable to the Mass Combat system, a Goblin mounted on a Warg would not fall into the category of MH or HH for attacks. Instead it would be counted as 2 HF (but move as HH). I say HF because when the term "men" is used, it usually implies "foot men". In contrast, most of the other descriptions are specific in presenting the fighting abilities as "foot" or "horse".

MH vs HF get 2 dice per man/ 5,6 kills.
HH vs HF get 3 dice per man/ 5,6 kills.
HF vs HF get 1 dice per man (so 2 dice)/ 6 kills. This is actually the same as the Warg fighting alone as LH. LH vs HF get 2 dice per man/ 6 kills.

Just to note, jacars approach of giving a mounted Warg +1 would produce LH vs HF get 2 dice per man/ 5,6 kills. This is similar to MH, except when opposing AF, MH, & HH. Not a bad option.

Man to Man Tables:

The description says, "In combat against fantastic opponents give them two attacks as men. They require a score equal to that necessary to kill a Wight to kill them."

What this tells me is that Wargs get 2 attacks on the MtM table (this would be against either "normal" or "fantastic" opponents). As I mentioned above, the Battle of 5 Armies article classifies Wargs as 2 daggers, leather armor. When in melee with a "normal" figure, they would get to roll at least twice on the MtM table each round (the rules on page 26 for classes of weapons would apply). To hit the Warg would require a roll between 5-8 or better on 2d6 (depending on the weapons class) if you used these weapon and armor classes for the Warg.

When the Warg is used as a mount, it would not receive an attack until the second round of melee and it could only attack footmen. But it could attack a different opponent from it's rider.

You suggested that "normal" figures could not attack "fantastic" figures and this is not the case. There are some that are immune to "normal" attacks, but some are not. A Warg could enter 1:1 melee with a Hero, for example. This is why I think they used the "Wight" to describe it's defense value. So, the Warg could attack a Hero on the MtM table, but it must make 4 simultaneous hits in a turn to kill the Hero. In contrast, the Hero could roll 2 dice on the FCT as against a Wight. A score of 6+ will kill the Warg. What this does is put the Warg into a category seperate from "normal" figures and the "fantastic" figures found on the Fantasy Combat Table. It's a different way of distinguishing the Warg in the frame work of Chainmail, without including it on the FCT.

I'm open to others interpretations on this matter though

[jacar]

In MtM combat Wargs do indeed get two attacks. It would not be unreasonable to say that wargs alone attack as 2 LH on the massed combat table. With a Goblin rider, perhaps it attacks as a LH and MH as Derv points out. As well, the "scare" (Charge morale) factor does increase as they now move as MH. (Nice find Derv!)

My ideas are still evolving. This is one of those incomplete rules in Chainmail unfortunately.