Rocs/Griffins, can figures they carry attack, charge, etc?

[blackpuddin5x5]

Hello, folks! I'm new to the forum, and to Chainmail, and could use a wee bit of assistance. Rocs are listed as being able to carry figures, at a rate of 36", in my copy of Chainmail, 3e. My version lists no restrictions, on whether carried figures may still attack, charge, split-move, etc. Do the earlier editions expand on this, or is such left up to interpretation?

Cheers,

Black Puddin.

[derv]

BP, as you noted there are no restrictions mentioned that would stop a character from performing a split-move or attack. But your question is not specific enough for me to answer fully. What the rules say is that a Roc can transport a man-size figure 36" per turn. What this means to me is that he can transport one 1:1 figure, not a 1:20 figure that represents 20 men. So, such a figure would most likely be a Hero, Superhero, or Wizard. In all these cases, you would treat the Roc as a mount and rules on page 26 for mounting/dismounting would apply. There are no instructions for aerial combat in CM except as it pertains to the Dragon. Also, the fact that the FRT on page 43 lists no charge move for the Roc leads me to believe this is not an option from the air. In melee against "normal" troops Rocs attack as 4 LH and defend as 4 HH. I would tend to give them the movement rate of a LH when on the ground which is 24"/ charge 30". The question would remain as to whether a figure could still be mounted and attack when the Roc is on the ground. This might be a possible option. The Rocs full move when flying is 48". So it suffers a reduction of 12" when carrying a rider. If you carried this over to ground movement of LH, this would reduce it's movement to 12"/ charge 18" (basically same as HH).

Hoped that helped. Maybe some others have some ideas how they would apply the rules.

[blackpuddin5x5]

The lack of charge move does grant some insight. Thank you.

The ratio confuses me, a bit. Do creature figures remain 1:1 ratio, even when man-sized figures are 1:10 or 1:20?

[derv]

All figures found on the Appendix E Fantasy Combat Table are 1:1. Scale, what combat system you're using, and how people use the two together based on their interpretations of the rules, can be confusing. Different people will give you different opinions in this regard. Some say the Fantasy Supplement was not meant to be played with the mass combat system. I do not personally agree. But there are a few threads on here that could help address these questions.

[derv]

BP, I think I failed to give you any detail when it comes to scale (ratio) in CM. I was hoping others might chime in. The short answer, in my opinion, is that all three combat systems can be played at any straight scale without real problems. If you want all figures 1:1, all combat systems will work mechanically. If you want all figures 1:20, all combat systems will work mechanically. Where the buggaboo comes in is when you mix scale of "normal" figures (1:20) with figures on the FCT (which I already said are 1:1). I have found that it works mechanically, but it may not produce results that some find consistent or realistic. Where this is most evident is when using a 1:1 Hero in melee with 1 or more "normal" 1:20 HF (or other troop type) on the MCT. Our Hero will be equal to 4 units (80 men). If you're okay with that idea, then as I said, it will work mechanics wise.

[blackpuddin5x5]

I had planned to mix AD&D PCs in with CM mass combats, with varying scale, depending on the battle. Basic "Heroes" figures will be 1, 10 or 20 4th level fighters. In 1:1 combat, player figures count as 1 man per level of fighter, barbarian, etc. In 1:10 or 1:20, each player figure represents themselves, and 9 or 19 elite men, still equaling the level in ability, per figure.

[derv]

If you're planning on mixing your AD&D PC's with Chainmail, your best bet is to first refer to the 3 LBB's. In Vol.1 M&M, you will find the Fighting Capability of the character classes by level. This is what you would use to translate your PC's to Chainmail. Lacking access to the 3 LBB's, you could simply do it by HD. It won't match exactly (especially at higher levels), but it's close enough. Basically, each HD is equal to a man. A 4th level fighter has 4 HD and the Fighting Capability of a Hero. This means he will fight as 4 figures of a chosen troop type (usually heavy foot) with the Mass Combat Tables.

In 1:1 combat, player figures count as 1 man per level of fighter,

If you are using the Man-to-Man Tables instead of the ACS, each level would count as a blow/attack against other normal figures.

If you are planning on using the Mass Combat Tables at 1:1, then yes, each level would count as a man.

In 1:10 or 1:20, each player figure represents themselves, and 9 or 19 elite men, still equaling the level in ability, per figure.

This is an approach that I know others use to rationalize the scale. Where the concept breaks down is with other figures on the Fantasy Combat Table. Would you give all of these figures an entourage (such as Trolls, Balrogs, Wraiths)? In reality, the idea that a single figure represents a Hero and his henchmen instead of just a single Hero is not something that changes the mechanics. So, if it helps you put the game into perspective, I don't see a problem with it. Now, if you would be giving additional dice to the figure to account for the henchmen, I would not think this is a good approach.

[blackpuddin5x5]

Just found the OD&D charts, for fighting capability by class. Thank you, Derv. I can just use cleric progression for thieves.

On scale, I can see keeping the giant or the dragon figures 1:1, while fighting in a 1:20 game. You can just say it's a great wyrm in 1:20. With PCs coming in the mix, I don't want them fighting equally, alone, whether facing 1, 10 or 20 opponents. It makes more sense to add 9 or 19 elite troops, to a player's figure, when having a higher scale game. I actually think that's what's implied under lycanthropes, when it speaks of the ability to summon animals of their type. Someone must've asked, while playing a 1:20 scale match of The Battle of 5 Armies. Bjorn's figure represents Bjorn and 19 normal bears. The figure still fights as a 1:1 Werebear. The animal summoning just explains the lycanthropes' particular flavor of sword fodder.

[derv]

Dec 12, 2013 15:58:07 GMT -6 blackpuddin5x5 said:

I actually think that's what's implied under lycanthropes, when it speaks of the ability to summon animals of their type. Someone must've asked, while playing a 1:20 scale match of The Battle of 5 Armies. Bjorn's figure represents Bjorn and 19 normal bears. The figure still fights as a 1:1 Werebear. The animal summoning just explains the lycanthropes' particular flavor of sword fodder.

I read the lycanthrope description in a different light. Chainmail lists it's special ability on the Fantasy Reference Table as "the ability to assume the shape of and gather like animals". Under it's description on page 34 it says "this adds to their fighting ability". It says nothing about how many additional "like animals" it will bring along. But it does go on to say that when fighting in or within 6" of woods they will double their melee capability. I associate this with their special ability to gather "like animals". In "The Battle of 5 Armies" from Dragon #1, the Order of Battle lists all figures as 1:20 except the heroes who are 1:1. Beorn would be included in that list of 1:1 figures. Beorn attacks as 4 AF for the first 2 turns, then in later turns he attacks as 8 AF. This is eqivalent to a Superhero.

[blackpuddin5x5]

You make a good point, on the lycanthrope. I never considered that was the effect of the animal summoning. When I mentioned Battle of 5 Armies, I meant as a for instance, as it seems a likely reenactment for these rules. I will have to check out Dragon #1, to see how they work the roster.

I can see the 1:1 heroic characters working fine, with a 1:20 war game. It just wouldn't mesh with the power levels in AD&D. A 4th fighter on a heavy horse shouldn't suddenly be able to kill 100+ men, per round, because of scale increase. It seems like it'd be easier to explain, that the heroic figures on 1:20 map have an elite personal guard. That way, their mass combat damage output is more in line with their AD&D combat prowess.

[thorswulf]

I must be confused. I always interpreted the fantasy races as follows. Normal man like fantasy races can be scaled as either 1:1 or 1:20. That is to say if a single model is on the table it represents itself and fights regardless of scale as listed. Ogres fight as 4 heavy foot, a group of 5 ogre figures would fight as 20 heavy foot. A single superhero figure fights as 8 men, and so forth.

[blackpuddin5x5]

That seems to be the case, no matter what the scale. You could say 1 figure represents 200 light foot, while another represents 1 huge dragon. As long as they roll based on the rules for their figure type, the scale is irrelevant. It only concerns me, as I will be mixing AD&D players in, and don't want them capable of more, just because of the scale.

[derv]

Dec 13, 2013 6:50:40 GMT -6 blackpuddin5x5 said:

You make a good point, on the lycanthrope. I never considered that was the effect of the animal summoning. When I mentioned Battle of 5 Armies, I meant as a for instance, as it seems a likely reenactment for these rules. I will have to check out Dragon #1, to see how they work the roster.

I can see the 1:1 heroic characters working fine, with a 1:20 war game. It just wouldn't mesh with the power levels in AD&D. A 4th fighter on a heavy horse shouldn't suddenly be able to kill 100+ men, per round, because of scale increase. It seems like it'd be easier to explain, that the heroic figures on 1:20 map have an elite personal guard. That way, their mass combat damage output is more in line with their AD&D combat prowess.

There use to be a picture in one of the threads that had the "Battle of 5 Armies" article. It seems to no longer be there. It's worth digging up if you can.

As to meshing your PC's with Chainmail, I understand your issues. An option that would keep things in check is to run the Mass Combat System at 1:1 for all figures. The only problem with this is that you are limited in the number of figures you can field at one time and as a result, the size of the battles you can put together.

Another possibility is to run the game at 1:10 or 1:20 and have one figure represent the party of PC's (assuming they are all Hero-types). This would not be my preference, but it would curb the PC's power. Unfortunately, it would also limit their ability to act independently. This is kind of similar to your idea of a Hero having an entourage as part of the figure when playing at 1:20.

A final suggestion, which is taken from Vol 3 U&WA, is to limit the PC figures to one kill per round regardless of the dice results. This is an inference taken from the statement under Land Combat on page 25. It says, "Battles involving large numbers of figures can be fought at a 20:1 ratio, with single fantastic types fighting separately at 1:1 or otherwise against but a single 20:1 figure". Of course this could apply to a 10:1 ratio as well. I personally like this rule for curbing the power of Hero-type figures in Chainmail when fighting "normal" troop types. This still might not suit your objectives though, since the PC's could still abstractly be killing 10-20 men a round.

[cooper]

If you want to play D&D with CHAINMAIL a hero fights as 1:1 scale and when you move to 1:20 or 1:10 or 1:100 scale, the hero acts a "commander" unit (which is explicite stared in the hero write up) and grants a +1 to all dice rolls of units he leads.

What is the point of a hero joining up with 1 figure of men (1:20 scale) and granting them a measly +1, if he all of a sudden becomes 4 figures of men himself? Does he grant +1 to all of his own attacks as long as he has 1 figure of 1:20 men with him?

I like stormcrow, but don't listen to him. A hero is always always always 1:1 scale--of course you are free to have a group of 80 heroes fighting in mass combat as a unit, just make sure to pay for them (1600 points or whatever

Now, you are free to use the mass combat system at 1:1 scale. You can have a single hero fight 20 normal men and you can roll 4d6/5-6 vs. 20d6/6 or use the alternate combat system or use man to man.

What you cannot do (when playing D&D) is have a 4th level fighter become 80 men.

[derv]

Using the PC's as "commanders" does have some real benefits to the surrounding troops. The +1 bonus will raise the probability of a kill by 16.67% on all dice for those troops. This benefit is also extended to all units within 12" of the commander. It can also be applied to morale checks, not to mention that the "commander" automatically rallies units he joins.

Now, you are free to use the mass combat system at 1:1 scale. You can have a single hero fight 20 normal men and you can roll 4d6/5-6 vs. 20d6/6 or use the alternate combat system or use man to man.

This could also be an interpretation of the passage I quoted from U&WA and how to apply it. It might make the best sense to BP in what he is trying to accomplish.

The only caveat in using this approach, when all "normal" figures are 1:20, is accounting for individual dead men and implementing the effects of morale checks. How would this be done if a Hero is in melee with a number of 1:20 figures? Would all the figures retreat or rout if only the one figure is in melee at a time with the Hero and fails morale at 1:1?

[Red Baron]

Dec 13, 2013 20:04:22 GMT -6 cooper said:

If you want to play D&D with CHAINMAIL a hero fights as 1:1 scale and when you move to 1:20 or 1:10 or 1:100 scale, the hero acts a "commander" unit (which is explicite stared in the hero write up) and grants a +1 to all dice rolls of units he leads.

What is the point of a hero joining up with 1 figure of men (1:20 scale) and granting them a measly +1, if he all of a sudden becomes 4 figures of men himself? Does he grant +1 to all of his own attacks as long as he has 1 figure of 1:20 men with him?

I like stormcrow, but don't listen to him. A hero is always always always 1:1 scale--of course you are free to have a group of 80 heroes fighting in mass combat as a unit, just make sure to pay for them (1600 points or whatever

Now, you are free to use the mass combat system at 1:1 scale. You can have a single hero fight 20 normal men and you can roll 4d6/5-6 vs. 20d6/6 or use the alternate combat system or use man to man.

What you cannot do (when playing D&D) is have a 4th level fighter become 80 men.

Chainmail say a hero has the fighting capability of four figures, not four men. Regardless of scale they still have the same ratio of power to one figure of men, whether that represents 1 man or 20. If a hero is worth 4, 40, 80, or 800 men so be it. Heroes are heroic.

I'll agree that this doesn't seem right though for d&d, as Men & Magic suggests that a hero has the fighting capability of 4 men, not 4 units of men. However in d&d the scale of monsters is 1:1 so 4 figures would be 4 men and this would work out. They are two separate games, despite the connections and rule overlaps. A hero can be worth 4 men in one and 40 in the other.