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Post by Porphyre on Nov 16, 2013 10:16:42 GMT -6
Norse gods could be hurt, threatened, captured or ransomed. Granted, that's in Snorri's Edda, which has a strong evhemerist subtext.
But that's to say that, if gods can walk in physical form, harm may occur to them. "Limited" gods can make interesting stories, especially if you want to have some kind of "mythical time" campaign.
On the other hand, I never bought the whole "avatar" thing. "Yeah, you brought down Thor to his knees, but that was only an avatar of him, just a small token of his power in physical form: you puny mortal cannot really expect to harm a god!" It always felt cheated to me: either the gods are physical and can be foiled, either they aren't!
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 16, 2013 11:31:53 GMT -6
I, too, do not like the D&D-style concept of avatars.
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Post by scottyg on Nov 16, 2013 12:25:05 GMT -6
I thought I made a post agreeing with porphyre77 too, but it's nowhere to be found. The avatar thing never worked for me.
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Post by snorri on Nov 16, 2013 16:27:45 GMT -6
Norse gods could be hurt, threatened, captured or ransomed. Granted, that's in Snorri's Edda, which has a strong evhemerist subtext.! Oh, yes, I was young at that time, what I wrote wasn't too bad. I feel sssoo old now.  |
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Post by bestialwarlust on Nov 17, 2013 8:59:41 GMT -6
It depends on your world, but who says they are truly gods? They could be really powerful mortals who through magic or some other means have become very powerful. But to the average man they seem god like. the common populace may worship them as gods and attribute aspects to them based on stories about them but they are no more gods then a powerful player character. They grant no spells or powers what so ever. But "hero" cults have sprung up and over time they formed religions around them. They can be killed, although why one would want to or need to is up to each campaign.
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Post by Stormcrow on Nov 17, 2013 12:42:47 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 13:18:25 GMT -6
They grant no spells or powers what so ever. But "hero" cults have sprung up and over time they formed religions around them. Does anyone know where the first mention of this idea that gods grant spells to the clerics comes from? In OD&D it's implied that they are similar in magic-users in how they cast. I ask because it's an idea that I really dislike. In the Runequest adventure Borderlands, there are rules for setting up a hero cult to worship a dead PC. I thought it was a neat idea since it revolved around finding worshipers rather than some sort of beam of light coming from the sky like in D&DGs. |
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Post by talysman on Nov 20, 2013 14:27:33 GMT -6
Greyhawk, page 8 (note for Wisdom) is probably the first.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 17:39:55 GMT -6
Greyhawk, page 8 (note for Wisdom) is probably the first. My comment wasn't very clear. What I was talking about was the idea that some gods can't high level spells. Limited to 3rd level or lower, for instance. |
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Post by talysman on Nov 20, 2013 20:06:31 GMT -6
Greyhawk, page 8 (note for Wisdom) is probably the first. My comment wasn't very clear. What I was talking about was the idea that some gods can't high level spells. Limited to 3rd level or lower, for instance. I'm not sure what you mean here. What I thought you were asking about was that clerics get their spells direct from their gods. The quote I was referencing was this: Now, this only covers knowledge of spells. It doesn't mention whether clerics get their spells during spell prep directly from their gods. This might be what you are referencing with the "limited to 3rd level or lower" comment. AD&D PHB specifically mentions that clerics get spells of 3rd level and higher from supernatural servants of their gods, with 6th and 7th level spells coming directly from the god; only 1st and 2nd level spells are based on knowledge rather than a divine boon. Is that what you mean? Or are you referring to the principle in Deities & Demigods where demi-gods can only grant spells up to 5th level, lesser gods can grant 6th level spells, and greater gods are the only ones who can grant 7th level spells? |
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Post by scottyg on Nov 20, 2013 20:36:34 GMT -6
Deities & Demigods was the first source I can think of that stated that the max spell level a god could grant was limited by the gods status. Only greater gods can grant 7th level spells. Lesser gods can't grant spells higher than 6th, and clerics of demigods won't be able to cast spells above 5th level. Something like that. I've never used the system.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 21:15:15 GMT -6
Or are you referring to the principle in Deities & Demigods where demi-gods can only grant spells up to 5th level, lesser gods can grant 6th level spells, and greater gods are the only ones who can grant 7th level spells? This. Thanks. My AD&D knowledge is pretty basic. |
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Post by Porphyre on Nov 22, 2013 16:04:04 GMT -6
Speaking of gods and the Suppl. IV...
I might have missed something, but I don't remember seeing an alignment listed in the description of the different deities. Which seems good to me: these pesky moral boundaries or stances are good for mortals, not for the gods!
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Post by krusader74 on Nov 22, 2013 21:35:23 GMT -6
Speaking of gods and the Suppl. IV... I might have missed something, but I don't remember seeing an alignment listed in the description of the different deities. Which seems good to me: these pesky moral boundaries or stances are good for mortals, not for the gods! In the Forward to Gods, Demi-gods & Heroes (1976), Tim Kask states the material isn't exhaustive. And while alignment isn't explicit, the deity Set does have the power to change a being's alignment: This conflates 'evil' with 'chaotic', something considered in several threads. The text continues: (Similarly, Osiris may reward a good deed with a wish.) So Set does have an interest in people's alignments, and wants to push them in a certain direction. And he rewards bad behavior. Can we infer from this that Set's alignment is chaotic? Four year's later, in AD&D's Deities & Demigods (1980), we get 3 separate alignment-like stats for Deities: ALIGNMENT, WORSHIPER'S ALIGN and PLANE, noting page 6 says, "PLANE: This refers to the deity's plane of origin. Usually this will be an outer plane corresponding to the deity's alignment, ..." Figures 4 & 5 on page 131 display the correspondence between PLANE and ALIGNMENT. The WORSHIPER'S ALIGN stat opens up the possibility that the worshiper's alignment doesn't need to match his Deity's alignment, and there are many examples of this strewn throughout the book. In AD&D, Set's ALIGNMENT is Lawful Evil, his PLANE is the Nine Hells (=Lawful Evil) and his WORSHIPER's ALIGN is any Evil. He can change any Good or any Neutral being's alignment to Lawful Evil. Does this description of Set's alignment in AD&D simply make explicit something that was implicit in OD&D? Or is it a totally brand new addition to the game? I don't presume to know the answers. Just sharing the questions your post raised for me. |
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Post by krusader74 on Nov 22, 2013 22:41:44 GMT -6
On page 5 of Deities & Demigods (1980) we see this: When I read this as a kid, I figured it meant that outside his home plane, a god was only temporarily killable, but that on his home plane, he was unkillable. However an older kid in our game group said it meant that outside his home plane, a god was only temporarily killable, but that on his home plane, he was permanently killable, i.e., if you killed him on his home plane, he permanently ceased to exist, and could never be resurrected, reanimated, raised or whatnot. Everybody went with that interpretation--the older generation of gamers were considered infallible to us youngsters. Later, when I started to read mythology, the above passage began to lose credibility for me-- When Set killed Osiris, he didn't return to his home plane--he went to the underworld (called Duat). He conquered this place and became its king. It took 4 gods (Isis, Nephtys, Thoth, and Anubis) to resurrect Osiris, but the resurrection was temporary, only lasting long enough for Osiris to sire a son, heir and avenger: Horus. Thereafter, he returned to the underworld. Similarly, during the Titanomachia, when Zeus killed Cronos, Cronos didn't return to his home plane--he too went to the underworld, specifically the cave of Nyx in Tartarus. He and the Titans were unable to escape, but able to help the Cyclops escape, in order to terrorize the gods. And later, Zeus relented and freed Cronus from Nyx, allowing him to become the king of Elysium, which is nevertheless still in the underworld (Tartarus). So, in both these mythologies, we learn 2 things: (1) gods aren't permanently killable, but (2) if they are killed, they are basically doomed to stay in the underworld forever. (It's noteworthy that in the Planescape setting, the Astral Plane, rather than the 'underworld', is where gods go when they die or are forgotten.) In the Theomachia (Homer's Illiad chapters 20-21), some gods fight each other, but Apollo refuses to fight Poseidon, because, he says, any pain or suffering they would experience would be transitory and ultimately meaningless. This seems to reflect the pagan idea that the gods are like Plato's Eternal Forms, and can't be completely obliterated; or the idea that gods & men both possess an immortal soul. In that view, when a man is killed, his immortal soul goes to the underworld. If he was a great warrior or a great orator or otherwise great, then he goes to Elysium. But if he failed to attain greatness in life, his soul goes to Limbo. It may be interesting to consider a world where gods are permanently killable. I enjoyed reading Jason Aaron's Thor: God of Thunder series in Marvel Comics where an alien named Gorr the God Butcher is able to wipe out whole pantheons of gods on many planets. And it might be fun to base a high level campaign off this idea. The best advice on "gods as monsters" is summed up by Tim Kask in the Forward to Supplement IV: That is to say: guidelines, not rules. This sentiment is repeated on page 5 of AD&D's Deities & Demigods: |
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Post by Porphyre on Nov 23, 2013 8:43:22 GMT -6
@krusader: yes the latter D&DG went the extra mile to formalize things.
The conception of alignment also had changed (from "side you fight with" to "morality index"), the system had been modified & complexified(from 3 Alignments to 5-Holmes-, then 9 -AD&D), and the "Cosmic Wheel" thrown in for good balance.
But I still like the idea that gods are unaligned: apart from the Obviosly Evil(tm) gods of Evil or Chaos like Set, Loki and cie. (althought the version of Loki we know might have been heavily rewritten by christian clerics to better match some "satanic" archetype); even the supposedly good (or at least lawful) deities can sometimes be marally ambivalent.
Odinn , in Norse myth, for exemple, is "All-father", Creator of the world and mankind, opponent to the forces of chaos symbolized by the Giants: as such he could be considered as Lawful; but he also is a trickster and a liar; he can protect a hero, then withdraw his protection at the most critical moment. As the master of the berserkers he is also the god of the battle Frenzy, so: chaotic?
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Post by talysman on Nov 23, 2013 13:33:05 GMT -6
I prefer "All gods are Lawful" because I interpret Law as referring to a cosmic order, the order imposed by the gods in the act of creation. Demons worshipped as gods are Chaotic. There are no neutrals, except maybe minor spirits.
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Post by Porphyre on Nov 23, 2013 14:38:41 GMT -6
I prefer "All gods are Lawful" because I interpret Law as referring to a cosmic order, the order imposed by the gods in the act of creation. Demons worshipped as gods are Chaotic. There are no neutrals, except maybe minor spirits. This is still compatible with the "Gods With No Alignement thing". In other words , Gods are not Lawful because they are the Law |
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Post by kenmeister on Dec 5, 2013 21:45:30 GMT -6
One of the problems is that it is difficult to define exactly what a god is, and to get others to agree with you. Can we all agree that Unknown Gods, at least, is really a book of high-powered beings rather than "nature-depends-on-them gods", and as such, should mostly all be killable? Man I love that book. |
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Post by Falconer on Dec 6, 2013 11:13:31 GMT -6
It’s no use trying to get everyone to agree. Sometimes, if I start a thread and it devolves into debate because half the people hate the idea, I then decide to open up a second thread “for those who like the idea” which tends to lead to more creative results. |
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 6, 2013 12:21:01 GMT -6
Can we all agree that Unknown Gods, at least, is really a book of high-powered beings rather than "nature-depends-on-them gods", and as such, should mostly all be killable? I for one agree with that. I cannot imagine any group of high-ish level D&D characters that could not kill one of those 40 hit point gods. Hell, with a bit of luck, it could be done in a single round. |
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Post by austinjimm on Dec 12, 2013 0:26:47 GMT -6
Anything "in-game," including "gods," can be killed. The Supreme Being (i.e. the ref/DM), however, is beyond the reach of simple, puny, weak "in-game" mortals.
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18 Spears
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Post by 18 Spears on Dec 12, 2013 0:47:40 GMT -6
No way.
Unless you'uns running a game for teenagers?
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Post by austinjimm on Dec 12, 2013 1:16:53 GMT -6
I've run games for 5 year olds, for than matter... And most of them have mastered English a fair bit better than "you'uns." Where'd you learn to talk, 18?
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18 Spears
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Post by 18 Spears on Dec 12, 2013 1:38:53 GMT -6
I've run games for 5 year olds, for than matter... And most of them have mastered English a fair bit better than "you'uns." Where'd you learn to talk, 18? you'uns is how we say the Texas "yaw" in TN and I learned it the same place I learned the diff between "that" and "than." Any questions? |
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Post by austinjimm on Dec 12, 2013 1:44:03 GMT -6
Naw, that bout splains it.
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18 Spears
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Post by 18 Spears on Dec 12, 2013 1:47:03 GMT -6
Naw, that bout splains it. Good reply. I like you. |
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Post by austinjimm on Dec 12, 2013 2:00:47 GMT -6
Well, now I'm swinging my legs from a dime. Glad yer not snubbed up.
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18 Spears
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Post by 18 Spears on Dec 12, 2013 2:23:48 GMT -6
Naw all in good fun its a game.
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Post by jeff on Dec 17, 2013 8:11:24 GMT -6
Well, now I'm swinging my legs from a dime. Glad yer not snubbed up. Born and raised in the south. Been here most of my life (except for those few years in Iraq and South America). Never heard that one  . And I have some cooooouuuuuunnnnntry family. Maybe it's a Texas or Louisiana thing |
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