Point-Buy/Standard Array

[tec97]

Does anyone have a good idea of exactly when point-buy/standard array became the default character generation method for RPGs? I'm not trying to begin a debate on the merits of this - just looking for an answer.

My gut is sometime shortly after the introduction of D&D 3.0 and the move to Living XXX, but I'd love to hear some other opinions on the time-frame.

[llenlleawg]

My personal guess would be much earlier than D&D 3e. Point-buy systems were the hot thing already by the early 80s, and widely praised as an innovative game design. Consider, e.g. DragonQuest by SPI (1980) in which one randomly determined the total points, but assigned as you willed, or Champions (1981), and later GURPS (1986). Even the deliciously arcane character generation of Chivalry & Sorcery changed to a random point pool generation which was then assigned by the player in the 2nd edition of the game (1983). When it actually became the default I can't say for certain, but I would be quite surprised to discover that it was later than the 1990s.

[Finarvyn]

Oct 14, 2013 15:37:28 GMT -6 llenlleawg said:

Champions (1981)

This is the first time I can recall point-buy in action.

[derv]

You mentioned Gurps. I have a feeling it may have started earlier with Steve Jackson's line of microgames- Melee (1977), Wizard (1978), Death Test (1978), etc. all under The Fantasy Trip umbrella.

[ffilz]

Yes, TFT would probably be the most important early example of point buy (with Melee in 1977) and may well be the first, or at least the first published system.

There were definitely other early examples. RuneQuest 2 specified a point buy system (1979).

GURPS and Champions probably drove the hobby towards great acceptance of point buy.

Of course point buy of armies predates any such use in RPGs so it's not surprising it came into RPGs pretty quickly.

I'm not aware of anything like the standard array prior to D&D 3.0. On the other hand, I was using a similar concept for skills in Traveller in the 1980s (I forget all the details, but I had several different standard arrays of skills, you randomly were assigned one, and then you assigned the skills you desired to each of the skill levels).

Frank

[flightcommander]

I'd have to second or third The Fantasy Trip here. There may have been other games with point-buy systems that predated Melee, but I think TFT was the earliest widely-adopted such game. There are blind-spots in my personal gaming history so I could be utterly wrong here.

Does anybody else remember GURPS "Man-to-man"? Basically the character and combat system from GURPS, derived from Melee, and the first published component of the GURPS system ... www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/man-to-man/

[llenlleawg]

Oct 14, 2013 17:35:48 GMT -6 ffilz said:

Yes, TFT would probably be the most important early example of point buy (with Melee in 1977) and may well be the first, or at least the first published system.

There were definitely other early examples. RuneQuest 2 specified a point buy system (1979).

GURPS and Champions probably drove the hobby towards great acceptance of point buy.

Thanks for the clarification! We all have lacunæ, and one of mine includes TFT. I recall quite vividly seeing it in hobby stores back in the day, but never played it. Same with RuneQuest, for that matter. Still, while I think these may have been pioneers, I would agree that it was Champions and GURPS that really established point buy in the hobby, since in the late 70s, and in the 80s as well, there were still many systems committed to the random generation of stats.

I suspect that the notion of "standard array" as an explicit option comes from D&D 3e, although surely someone here knows a prior (and more obscure) instance! There were "standard arrays" of a sort in Champions (i.e. basic guides on how to produce a brick, a martial artist, etc.), and everyone "knew" what stats were generally "needed", but Champions (and GURPS) never had that as an explicit default option.

[tec97]

Thanks for all the responses, but I'm thinking I was not sufficiently clear in my question - this

Oct 14, 2013 10:53:24 GMT -6 tec97 said:

Does anyone have a good idea of exactly when point-buy/standard array became the default character generation method for RPGs? I'm not trying to begin a debate on the merits of this - just looking for an answer.

My gut is sometime shortly after the introduction of D&D 3.0 and the move to Living XXX, but I'd love to hear some other opinions on the time-frame.

was what I was really looking for. I knew about Champions - played for years - but I consider it a bit of an outlier, as they had a very specific goal in mind, and their particular point-buy method did exactly what they wanted in a way that IMO has not been equaled, let alone bettered.

I'm surprised to hear that TFT, and the Melee games had PB as well, however their methods did not really gain traction.

I'm specifically interested in when they became default method for most RPGs as I believe they are today. When I started gaming in the late 70's/early 80's we rolled up characters (Champions excepted)- today, from what I can gather, people create characters using an XX point-buy or the standard array. It is this overall paradigm shift that I'm interested in.

[ffilz]

Champions and GURPS definitely set the stage. I'm not familiar with Vampire, if it has point buy it would be another major step towards point buy over rolling up. D&D 3.0 of course converted the mass of D&D players to point buy.

On standard array, the idea that ALL characters use the standard array is probably closely tied to D&D (hmm, other than my use of a similar concept for skills in Traveller, I'm actually not aware of anything other users of a standard array). I see the standard array as different from templates where you choose a template that has a standard set of stats.

The real issue in answering your question though is how do we look at the hobby as a whole vs the mass of "the only game I play is D&D" vs other segments. If we take percentage of the hobby as a whole for adoption of point buy, then yes, D&D 3.0 is it, and every other game is noise. But I don't think that's a fair way to look at the evolution of gaming. For one thing, those other games influenced D&D (Monte Cook who had a huge influence on D&D 3.0 mechanics was part of the Champions scene).

Frank

[Falconer]

I have never used point-buy, so I find it hard to believe that it HAS become “the default character generation method for RPGs.” It seems to me the phrase “roll up a character” is as common as ever. I was under the impression it was still default to “roll up a character” in D&D 3.0.

[snorri]

It became so uncommon to randomize characters in most rpgs outside of the OSR, that some of those who still randomize suggest a point buy alternative method. I tend to consider dices makes more interesting characters than any point-buy or picks - and when I'm asked to point-buy, I feel troubled, I just don't know what to choose - and it's too much maths for me. 3d6 in a row is just fine for me - maybe I'm oldschool

[llenlleawg]

Oct 15, 2013 7:49:57 GMT -6 tec97 said:

Thanks for all the responses, but I'm thinking I was not sufficiently clear in my question - this

Oct 14, 2013 10:53:24 GMT -6 tec97 said:

Does anyone have a good idea of exactly when point-buy/standard array became the default character generation method for RPGs? I'm not trying to begin a debate on the merits of this - just looking for an answer.

My gut is sometime shortly after the introduction of D&D 3.0 and the move to Living XXX, but I'd love to hear some other opinions on the time-frame.

was what I was really looking for. I knew about Champions - played for years - but I consider it a bit of an outlier, as they had a very specific goal in mind, and their particular point-buy method did exactly what they wanted in a way that IMO has not been equaled, let alone bettered.

I'm surprised to hear that TFT, and the Melee games had PB as well, however their methods did not really gain traction.

I'm specifically interested in when they became default method for most RPGs as I believe they are today. When I started gaming in the late 70's/early 80's we rolled up characters (Champions excepted)- today, from what I can gather, people create characters using an XX point-buy or the standard array. It is this overall paradigm shift that I'm interested in.

No, we got you, and you were being perfectly clear, as comes through all of our answers!

Since you say default character generation method for RPGs, I have to presume you mean "apart from D&D". I am puzzled, then, that you call Champions an outlier here. It may have done what it did best, but as I noted above, point pools for creating characters was becoming all the rage in the 1980s. It was resisted at TSR (e.g. Gamma World, Top Secret, Star Frontiers, Marvel Super Heroes, etc.), but then that's to be expected, isn't it? Granted, apart from TFT, games in the 1970s followed the lead of D&D and had random generation, but this came to be displaced by more and more customization as the norm throughout the 1980s. As I mentioned, the fantasy genre saw randomly generated point pool character design (so moving away from pure random and towards customization) in DragonQuest (1980) and Chivalry & Sorcery (2nd edition). Supers were drawn to it by the dominance of Champions (1981), but it was re-echoed in DC Heroes (1985). Even Marvel Super Heroes (1984) is often falsely remembered as a random character generation system, no doubt because of all of those fun tables. Still, the main methods you are presumed to be using are either (a) modelling an existing Marvel comics character or (b) designing your own with a verbal description to the GM, who then just assigns the appropriate values to FASERIP and the powers; no random generation at all! When Torg (1990) was released, there was nothing especially innovative in having basic character templates for key archetypes with a set of points for some customization with skills.

Admittedly, other games did not follow this trend and stuck with the old standby (e.g. Runequest and Call of Cthulhu) of random stat generation. Still, as you can see from the above, the already by the 1980s some kind of point-buy was already becoming a significant feature of the RPG world, so much so that the idea and mechanic were hardly new in 2000 when D&D 3e hit the scene, even if it was new to have such a system as one of the defaults for D&D. So, while you may have been rolling up characters still in the 1980s, many gamers were not (see the list above), and these games were hardly minority expressions of gaming for the time, even if D&D was the dominant form of RPG.

[tec97]

llenlleawg - I would argue that most RPGs in the 80s - Champions being a notable exception - were random-character generation. You've detailed a number that weren't; however those had much smaller followings. The majority of games played at that time - the TSR line-up - Runequest/CoC - Traveller (with Frank's standard array game excepted) - Rolemaster - Warhammer FRP - all of these had random stat generation as their standard. My guess is that these games represented 80%+ of the gaming done. I think in the 80s, non-random characters were most definitely a minority expression.

In the 90's there was a definite shift toward White Wolf, however I don't really remember much about those games except for the fact that I didn't have any use for them. At that time, I think you could argue that there was more of a move to customized characters, both in the games published, and through the 2nd ed AD&D character kits.

Now, by which I term year 2000 D&D 3.0 and newer and it's non-OSR variants (Pathfinder), point-buy or more often, standard array has, I believe become default. Maybe I'm incorrect here, but I think if you set up a poll at WotC or the Paizo boards regarding character generation, these two methods would represent a huge majority of the responses, and it's been so for over 10 years. Is the OSR alive? Of course, but it really is a challenge to convince gamers who've grown up on 3.5/3.5/Pathfinder to roll up a character, and take a chance on not getting to play exactly what they have in mind.

[skars]

We never used point-buy in 3.x and it was not the "standard" unless you played in RPGA or similar organized play. Point buy came along as a new wave along with the 2098435 "Generic" RPGs that came out in the late 80's early 90's. As noted already some of the heavy hitters were the Champions/Hero System and TFT/Gurps. Go to any used bookstore and tell me you don't find at least one GURPS sourcebook...

But, since we aren't really arguing over if it became a default, to be perfectly honest, the point-buy becoming the de-facto "standard" for many gamers was ushered in with EverQuest and World of Warcraft and the oodles of rpg pc games before them laying the framework that point buy lended itself well to and became comfortable.