Buying Spells

[Keith]

I saw a variant of the Vancian spell system where the player can have his MU "buy" spells with hit points.
If I understood it correctly a MU would not be locked-in to the Vancian spell tables in MM (or BX, BECMI), but would, rather, be able to exchange some hit points for a day for a spell that's lower (or even higher) than those allowed in the tables.

Trouble is, I can't remember where I saw this, which rule system it was.

I'd also be curious to hear your thoughts about this: Would it work with OD&D, or do you think it'd create game balance issues?

Take care,
Keith

[Deleted]

Without play-testing? It seems like it could work.

IMO you would still need a way of limiting the MU's power, so I would stick with the spell levels and spell level advancement. Just shootin' from the hip on this one. Keep us posted.

[Keith]

Oct 6, 2013 11:26:58 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

Without play-testing? It seems like it could work.

IMO you would still need a way of limiting the MU's power, so I would stick with the spell levels and spell level advancement. Just shootin' from the hip on this one. Keep us posted.

Yes, you would have to limit their power.
As it stands they've always seemed to weak at low levels, and that's always bugged me. None of my players ever wanted to be MUs.
If I can figure out where I saw that I'll post a link.

[Deleted]

Just off the top of my pointy head, how about:

MU gets 1 casting per level, guaranteed.

Thereafter, he must roll a saving throw versus spells (or favorite category) to cast another. If he fails, he can still cast the spell but temporarily sacrificing 1 hit point (or Constitution). Maybe limit hit points spent -- 1 hit point per level gained must be retained. If you use CON instead, that score can't be lowered < 3 or the MU must save versus death ray to avoid death/coma/daze (ref's choice), player must have at least 1 point CON.

Just a few random thoughts. HTH.

[Deleted]

... or maybe 1 spell per cumulative levels?

1st level = 1 free spell
2nd level = 3 free spells (1+2)
3rd level = 6 free spells (1+2+3)

ad infinitum ...

[derv]

There's a few systems that use an attribute to power spells. The following come to mind- Heroes & Other Worlds, Dark City Games LotAW, T&T, TFT. Some of these limit your ability to learn new spells based on IQ or INT. Then the spells are powered by Endurance, Strength, Power, or Wizardry. That being said, I see no reason why you couldn't mash up your D&D along the same lines.

Out of all the systems I mentioned, HOW is suppose to be a blend of TFT and Moldvay. But it is a point buy, 4 stat system. You could check it out on Fenway5's blog by downloading Cauldron #0. It has a quick start rules there.
www.heroworlds.blogspot.com/

And Dark City Games rules are free on there site as well.
www.darkcitygames.com/

Might not be what you're looking for, but hopefully it helps.

[waysoftheearth]

Oct 6, 2013 14:04:47 GMT -6 Keith said:

As it stands they've always seemed to weak at low levels, and that's always bugged me. None of my players ever wanted to be MUs.

This may be a bit off topic, my apologies, but perhaps worth considering a few options to encourage use of magic-users:

1. All M-Us can cast spell scrolls of any spell level (this is BTB),
2. Fighters start with super cheap armour (10%? assuming plate "should" be 500gp); consider allowing M-Us to start with super cheap scrolls (10%)?
3. Allow M-U's to cast spells from their spellbook unlimited times, but require 10+ minutes casting time (i.e., not "shooting from the hip"), and risk taking a heavy spellbook with them.
4. Magic-users can identify magic items, either by knowledge or use of a "detect magic" spell?

Just a few thoughts...

[Keith]

Oct 6, 2013 16:26:00 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Oct 6, 2013 14:04:47 GMT -6 Keith said:

As it stands they've always seemed to weak at low levels, and that's always bugged me. None of my players ever wanted to be MUs.

This may be a bit off topic, my apologies, but perhaps worth considering a few options to encourage use of magic-users:

1. All M-Us can cast spell scrolls of any spell level (this is BTB),
2. Fighters start with super cheap armour (10%? assuming plate "should" be 500gp); consider allowing M-Us to start with super cheap scrolls (10%)?
3. Allow M-U's to cast spells from their spellbook unlimited times, but require 10+ minutes casting time (i.e., not "shooting from the hip"), and risk taking a heavy spellbook with them.
4. Magic-users can identify magic items, either by knowledge or use of a "detect magic" spell?

Just a few thoughts...

I like those ideas. Actually, I already do the first one, but the third one is particularly interesting.

I like off-topic, btw

[Keith]

Oct 6, 2013 16:10:21 GMT -6 derv said:

There's a few systems that use an attribute to power spells. The following come to mind- Heroes & Other Worlds, Dark City Games LotAW, T&T, TFT. Some of these limit your ability to learn new spells based on IQ or INT. Then the spells are powered by Endurance, Strength, Power, or Wizardry. That being said, I see no reason why you couldn't mash up your D&D along the same lines.

Out of all the systems I mentioned, HOW is suppose to be a blend of TFT and Moldvay. But it is a point buy, 4 stat system. You could check it out on Fenway5's blog by downloading Cauldron #0. It has a quick start rules there.
www.heroworlds.blogspot.com/

And Dark City Games rules are free on there site as well.
www.darkcitygames.com/

Might not be what you're looking for, but hopefully it helps.

Thanks much ... I like heroworlds' blog ... nice layout and all. I downloaded Cauldron # 0 and have been reading through it. Pretty cool concepts. I'd never heard of this game. It'll give me something to do during work tomorrow :-}

[Finarvyn]

Oct 6, 2013 10:40:03 GMT -6 Keith said:

I saw a variant of the Vancian spell system where the player can have his MU "buy" spells with hit points.

If you do this, make sure to give the MU more hit points.

I know I've seen something like this before, and in a couple of rulebooks, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment as to where I've seen it.

[gronkthebold]

Oct 7, 2013 6:01:23 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Oct 6, 2013 10:40:03 GMT -6 Keith said:

I saw a variant of the Vancian spell system where the player can have his MU "buy" spells with hit points.

If you do this, make sure to give the MU more hit points.

I know I've seen something like this before, and in a couple of rulebooks, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment as to where I've seen it.

It sounds like the magic system from Microlite D20, where characters have CON+1d6 hit points and spells cost 1+ double the spell level. I could be wrong though.

[Zenopus]

Reading this thread, I thought of a post by PapersAndPaychecks that I saw recently on Dragonsfoot:

...I've got two magic items that I tend to put within relatively easy reach of a first level party:-

1) Vaenu's Robe, which is a garment that, if worn, grants a mage or illusionist the capacity to memorise one additional first level spell per day; and
2) Amulet of Galidor, which clerics wear round their neck. If worn, the cleric rolls each of his or her healing spells twice and takes the higher of the two rolls.

Both items work for single-class characters only. Both are commonplace, relatively low-cost items in the campaign that many NPC casters have.

So, to test out "spell buying" without changing your whole magic system, simply give the magic-user a magic item that grants the power. For example, an "Amulet of Essence Channeling" that allows additional casting of memorized spells via sacrificing hit points. If it works well, you could even have it be an item that all magic-users receive from their mentors along with a spellbook.

[Keith]

Oct 7, 2013 6:01:23 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Oct 6, 2013 10:40:03 GMT -6 Keith said:

I saw a variant of the Vancian spell system where the player can have his MU "buy" spells with hit points.

If you do this, make sure to give the MU more hit points.

Yeppers ... that's the next challenge.
I ran my son through a few simple dungeon rooms with a 3rd level MU.
And his PC got killed. Bad luck, that. But I betcha it wouldn't've happened using the normal rules.
It's kinda fun to experiment with stuff like this ... and that's part of the whole idea of OD&D, right? Flexibility.

[Keith]

Oct 7, 2013 15:07:14 GMT -6 gronkthebold said:

It sounds like the magic system from Microlite D20, where characters have CON+1d6 hit points and spells cost 1+ double the spell level. I could be wrong though.

I bet that's it. I'll check when I get back home.
I "collect" all these OSR rulesets (can you collect PDFs??), and often get them mixed up because I'm pushing 50 and scatter-brained : )