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Post by oakesspalding on Sept 18, 2013 17:23:13 GMT -6
For the neo-clone I'm working on I've been playing around with restructuring the magic item tables from M&T and Greyhawk to make them more level appropriate. In other words, you would have, say, ten tables, with the first containing low-grade potions, etc., while the tenth would have the super-powerful staves, and so on. I first tried simply inputting the G.P. sale values from the DMG and sorting them that way, but I find many of those values to be sort of arbitrary and annoying. I'm aware that the Monsters and Treasure Assortments provide good examples and that Swords & Wizardry sort of classifies magic items by value in a somewhat loose way. I suppose I will simply go through and readjust the DMG values one by one, but can anyone cite any other examples where this has been done and done well? Or does anyone have any suggestions for me before I try doing it again from scratch?
Or do people think this is a bad idea to begin with? Maybe when stocking the dungeon, if you want to use random tables at all, you should just see what you get and then simply re-roll if you get something that you feel is too powerful to give out at lower levels?
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Post by strangebrew on Sept 18, 2013 18:03:48 GMT -6
So that low-level characters would find low-level magic items on low-level dungeons? I kind of like doing things randomly as often as possible, since it makes the dungeon seem more like an independent site, and less like a deliberately manufactured challenge for novice adventurers. Sculpting the "reality" of the game to conform to the characters is a bit too meta, if that's the right word. One of the things I like about OD&D is that the dungeons and wilderness may contain ridiculously difficult challenges or incredible treasures, the same no matter if it's a novice or superhero doing the exploration. As opposed to the entire "difficulty level" of the world mysteriously rising in line with the characters' experience, as was the case in my 2nd and 3rd edition days.
If a awesome sword is generated, the characters have just really lucked out. In my opinion anyways. And finding an item is maybe easier than keeping it for a long term...
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 18, 2013 18:27:14 GMT -6
The outside possibility of finding some of those fantastic treasures is perhaps the main motivation for a PC to risk life and limb by entering a deadly dungeon.
You'd risk a fair bit to get your hands on a +3 mythic sword. But would you risk as much for a potion of plant control? Probably not.
In Makofan's OD&D game on these boards, my 2nd level Elf had the incredible good fortune to get a staff of wizardry, probably one of the most powerful items in the book. Makofan PM'd to me saying he'd rolled an 00 on the treasure table, thought about "fudging it" to something lesser, but in the end just went with it. I was glad he did, because how often do these things really come up in play? Almost never -- I'd never seen a staff of wizardry in action in any game before, at any level, so it was great to get it off the page and into play at last.
I think it's a risk to leave the "best stuff 'til later" (dragons, staves of wizardry, or whatever), because "later" might turn out to be "never".
edit:
Another consideration is that "big" items will attract the interest of "big" NPCs. So an interesting question for campaign "balance" is: how long would a low level PC really be able to hold onto a super powerful item before some big bad Wizard or Lord comes along to rob them of it? How many fantasy novels portray struggles over the ownership of desirable objects?
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Post by Zenopus on Sept 18, 2013 19:38:43 GMT -6
Oakes, the treasure portion of the OD&D Monster & Treasure Assortment Sets are set up like this. In total there are 9 tables of 100 treasures for dungeon levels 1-9. They include both coins and magic items, with the value of the coins and the power and frequency of the magic items increasing with each level.
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Post by oakesspalding on Sept 18, 2013 20:53:33 GMT -6
I kind of like doing things randomly as often as possible, since it makes the dungeon seem more like an independent site, and less like a deliberately manufactured challenge for novice adventurers. You'd risk a fair bit to get your hands on a +3 mythic sword. But would you risk as much for a potion of plant control? Probably not. I think you've both convinced me. Plus it's easier and coheres more with my basic laziness.  From M&T and Greyhawk I have constructed a list of 305 items. This includes 32 scrolls and spell books of different levels/numbers of spells, minus 3 items I don't like. I think I'll structure the tables according to what fits best on the page--perhaps five main tables, distinguished alphabetically, with an additional five subtables for the less common items that might have less than a 1 in 500 frequency. Trivia question (and answer): what are the five items in M&T and Greyhawk that each have only a 1 in 13,000+ (!) chance of discovery? Mirror of Life Trapping Sphere of Annihilation Talisman of Chaos Supreme Talisman of Lawfulness Talisman of the Sphere By comparison, +1 swords are 800 times more frequent, and 25% of those can TALK to you! (1 out of every 15 magic items is a +1 sword.) One of the things I like about OD&D is that the dungeons and wilderness may contain ridiculously difficult challenges or incredible treasures, the same no matter if it's a novice or superhero doing the exploration. As opposed to the entire "difficulty level" of the world mysteriously rising in line with the characters' experience... Yes, but the "mysterious" metaphysics of most dungeons getting progressively more difficult at each level is one of the fundamental principles of the game. I think what makes this okay is that it's a sort of fixed rule of the universe that remains true whatever the strength of the characters is. Another consideration is that "big" items will attract the interest of "big" NPCs. So an interesting question for campaign "balance" is: how long would a low level PC really be able to hold onto a super powerful item before some big bad Wizard or Lord comes along to rob them of it? How many fantasy novels portray struggles over the ownership of desirable objects? Yes. Once you realize that all the Evil Super Heroes, Necromancers and Evil Patriarchs of the lower levels are now on a quest to mug you, you might want to just ditch the d**n thing. Another consideration is that such items might be in and of themselves be too powerful for one's own good. For example, do you really want that +3 sword with the 12 Intelligence and 12 Ego? No one (I assume) wants to be a puppet, even a super-powerful one. Oakes, the treasure portion of the OD&D Monster & Treasure Assortment Sets are set up like this. In total there are 9 tables of 100 treasures for dungeon levels 1-9. They include both coins and magic items, with the value of the coins and the power and frequency of the magic items increasing with each level. Thanks. I have it. What is interesting about it is that unlike most other "supplements" it's not geared to any particular edition-Original, Holmes or AD&D-but is rather from a time and outlook where it was all sort of a mash. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 18, 2013 21:19:25 GMT -6
Trivia question (and answer): what are the five items in M&T and Greyhawk that each have only a 1 in 13,000+ (!) chance of discovery? Mirror of Life Trapping Sphere of Annihilation Talisman of Chaos Supreme Talisman of Lawfulness Talisman of the Sphere Is that correct Oakes? The way I figure it the Mirror of Life Trapping occurs one time in 2,667 magic items. Assuming an "any" magic item has occurred it's .75 likely to be a magic item, and .05 likely to be a miscellaneous item, and .01 likely to be a mirror of life trapping. That's 0.75 x 0.05 x 0.01 = 0.000375. 1/0.000375 = 2,667 Or does your figure also include the probability of finding an "any" item (map of magic item) in the first place? That would be difficult to get a handle on because it depends on what treasure types are used, which depends on what monsters exist, which depends on your dungeon level design! How'd you get the 1 in 13,000 figure? |
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Post by oakesspalding on Sept 18, 2013 21:43:33 GMT -6
Remember, there are five tables for Miscellaneous Magic Items in Greyhawk. The mirror of Life Trapping has a 1% chance of appearing on a Table (III, 61-75) that only has a 15% chance itself of appearing (out of 5%). So that's 1/.15 * 2,667 or 17,777. (It's 13,335 if you don't count maps, or 15,000 if you throw in a 10% chance of spell books, as I do).
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Post by Porphyre on Sept 19, 2013 1:13:39 GMT -6
Otherwise , you can just use the tables of the different Basic sets (Holmes , Moldvay's or Mentzer's ) for low level adventures , then the M&T/ Suppl 1 for higher level.
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 19, 2013 4:18:13 GMT -6
oakesspalding, I think this is a neat idea and now you’ve been talked out of it. Monsters are broken down into levels by difficulty and it makes sense to me that treasures would be broken up as well. It would also give a chance to clean up the charts and get rid of some of the dumber entries; why do we need so many cursed magical items? Oakes, the treasure portion of the OD&D Monster & Treasure Assortment Sets are set up like this. In total there are 9 tables of 100 treasures for dungeon levels 1-9. They include both coins and magic items, with the value of the coins and the power and frequency of the magic items increasing with each level. This is a nice alternative. I haven’t looked at the assortment in a while, but I was thinking that they had specific items in the treasure list and not so much a generic one. I’d like to see M&T pages 23-26 done three times: low, medium, and difficult. Otherwise , you can just use the tables of the different Basic sets (Holmes , Moldvay's or Mentzer's ) for low level adventures , then the M&T/ Suppl 1 for higher level. This would be another nice alternative as well. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Sept 19, 2013 5:46:49 GMT -6
While I like the completely random tables from Holmes (obviously) I also think level-based tables would be a neat idea. They could also be a differentiating feature for your "neo-clone" (cool new word).
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Post by oakesspalding on Sept 19, 2013 6:17:02 GMT -6
Well, here is the "raw" list before any modifications, for anyone who wants to try their hand at Magic Item Table (re)construction: |
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Post by makofan on Sept 19, 2013 8:18:19 GMT -6
You could divide the magic items into six 'levels', like Book 3 does with Mosnters, and then use the Wandering Monster Table to also see which table you roll on for magical treasure
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Post by aldarron on Sept 19, 2013 10:42:11 GMT -6
....Yes, but the "mysterious" metaphysics of most dungeons getting progressively more difficult at each level is one of the fundamental principles of the game. .... I never thought this was particularly mysterious, at least not any more mysterious than the penthouse suites being on the top floors and the economy apartments being on the bottom. The deepest dungeon levels are the most secure and the most able to influence/control all other levels, hence the place of choice for the toughest baddies. Sorry for wandering off topic |
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Post by strangebrew on Sept 19, 2013 17:32:33 GMT -6
My intention certainly wasn't to talk you out of anything, since some people would really go for something like this. It kind of reminds me of the '81 Basic and Expert sets, with their separate treasure tables. The Expert set advises that a ref use the Basic set for characters of levels 1-3, thereby cutting off access to the more powerful items. And it makes sense that, if a powerful item was on level 1-3, a denizen of the lower levels probably would have snatched it by now and taken it with them. This is all fine, but I just really dig the idea of low-level adventurers stumbling upon something of great power. I think it would be really fun. I never thought this was particularly mysterious, at least not any more mysterious than the penthouse suites being on the top floors and the economy apartments being on the bottom. The deepest dungeon levels are the most secure and the most able to influence/control all other levels, hence the place of choice for the toughest baddies. Yeah, in my mind the lower/deeper levels are much more permanent and established than the first couple. I can see a big turnover for residents on levels 1-3, due to adventurers' forays as well as attacks from below, but the more powerful monsters probably have a pretty stable set up arranged down there. Arrrgh the terms low-level and high-level can be really confusing to express in this context, since the low-level depth-wise is the high-level difficulty-wise.  |
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Post by oakesspalding on Sept 19, 2013 21:29:23 GMT -6
Interesting changes of emphasis that I hadn't noticed before from M&T (1974) to the DMG (1979):
Chance for:
Swords: 20% to 11%
Misc. Weapons: 5% to 14%
Potions: 15% to 20%
Scrolls: 20% to 15%
Misc. Magic: 5% to 15%
And within the Sword category the chance of an intelligent sword goes down to only half or less of what it was. Thus, those uppity swords are at least four times as rare.
Snarky question for the DMG: Why in the name of Artemis would any sane Magic-User bother to create a suit of +3 Splint Mail?! Or do some people just have too much time on their hands?
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Post by Zenopus on Sept 19, 2013 21:40:11 GMT -6
Perhaps they are artifacts of a time when Splint Mail ruled the world?
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