Clerics against the gods

[Stormcrow]

Aug 26, 2013 22:07:49 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

I like the idea of cleric as a man tasked with the repression of a constant and relentless emergence of evil creatures and cults.

That's pretty much the definition of a cleric already.

If all the gods and higher beings in the universe were evil deities and demons with incomprehensible and alien, yet sinister, goals, with which wizards bargained and paid homage for their eldritch arts, then from whom would a clerics saintly miracles be bestowed?

There's nothing in the original game that says clerics cast "saintly miracles." They cast magic spells just like a magic-user. Their magic comes from the lore of "things that kill demons and heal the wounds they cause."

[cleverkobold]

I agree with you on spells, Stormcrow. I never really interpreted cleric spells as being granted to them by their gods (even though it blatantly says this in later editions). I like to think of them as the church's approved list of spells; while the spells that M-Us cast are not approved and will brand their user a heretic.

[llenlleawg]

Aug 27, 2013 5:59:58 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

There's nothing in the original game that says clerics cast "saintly miracles." They cast magic spells just like a magic-user. Their magic comes from the lore of "things that kill demons and heal the wounds they cause."

Of course, there's nothing in the original game that says that vampires drink the blood of the living, either. Sure, that's what vampires do. By the same token, I find it odd not to see clerical spells as being "saintly miracles" since, well, that's what the list just is (i.e. it explains why the list includes the spells that it does).

Granted, play and enjoy the game as you will! Enjoy the hell out of it! But on any fair reading, a cleric as such surely is working heavenly "magic".

In response to the original question, I see no reason not to use a "cleric" in a "godless" campaign as someone who has mastered those rituals which are just able to restrain/oppose the corrupting power of the unearthly, alien "gods". You would want to change level titles, even the name of the class, but I wouldn't overworry where the spells come from.

[Stormcrow]

The cleric spell list also comes from rituals to protect from evil spirits, to contact the dead, to seek and destroy the undead, to remove ailments and curses... in other words, exactly the sort of things a monster-hunter needs to do his job. (Note: when I say monster-hunter, I mean vampires and other horror-monsters.)

If you read Dracula, you'll notice that most of Van Helsing's techniques have exact corresponding cleric spells. I know Sir Fang was inspired by a movie rather than directly by the book, but the connection is still there.

[Red Baron]

Aug 27, 2013 15:06:37 GMT -6 cleverkobold said:

I agree with you on spells, Stormcrow. I never really interpreted cleric spells as being granted to them by their gods (even though it blatantly says this in later editions). 

Your right. I'm still too deeply set in my ad&d mindset. Thanks for the reminder Stormcrow.

I like to think of them as the church's approved list of spells; while the spells that M-Us cast are not approved and will brand their user a heretic.

Great. This is what I needed.

[librarylass]

Aug 27, 2013 15:06:37 GMT -6 cleverkobold said:

I agree with you on spells, Stormcrow. I never really interpreted cleric spells as being granted to them by their gods (even though it blatantly says this in later editions). I like to think of them as the church's approved list of spells; while the spells that M-Us cast are not approved and will brand their user a heretic.

Would that suggest then that Magic users could learn to prepare the spells of the Cleric list? And what about instances where there is a discrepancy between the levels of certain spells?

[Stormcrow]

Aug 28, 2013 3:47:09 GMT -6 librarylass said:

Would that suggest then that Magic users could learn to prepare the spells of the Cleric list?

No, because magic-users don't specialize in fighting undead and demons.

The spell lists don't just represent what spells are "out there"; they represent those spells a caster will have access to because of his course of study.

And what about instances where there is a discrepancy between the levels of certain spells?

Where the studies of magic-users and clerics overlap, they do so at different points during the casters' careers.

[llenlleawg]

Aug 27, 2013 15:06:37 GMT -6 cleverkobold said:

I agree with you on spells, Stormcrow. I never really interpreted cleric spells as being granted to them by their gods (even though it blatantly says this in later editions).

Not later editions, actually. It's right there in Greyhawk, p. 8, "All cleric spells are considered as "divinely" given and as such a cleric with a wisdom factor of 3 would know all of the spells as well as would a cleric with an 18 wisdom factor."

Indeed, Stormcrow's claim that a cleric's spells include rituals "to contact the dead [and] to seek and destroy the undead" is only true if we use Greyhawk, since Speak with Dead was a new spell added in Greyhawk. Otherwise, none of the cleric's spells are specifically helpful against the undead (unless you count undead among those things which are warded off by Protection from Evil, which then is also an MU spell). Even Cure Disease is only somewhat helpful against the only disease-causing undead (i.e. mummies).

The appeal to Van Helsing here in interesting. Obviously, Van Helsing never casts spells or works magic rituals. He is, however, authorized by the Catholic Church to make use of consecrated Hosts in his endeavors against the Undead. When he seals Lucy in her tomb, burns the forehead of Mina, and guards Mina with a circle of protection, he is not doing so by using any special ritual. Rather, it is the holy/divine power of the Host itself that wards off of the Undead. Similarly, there is no ritual knowledge that allows the crucifix to hold vampires at bay; it is the holy Power (i.e. God) of whom the cross is a sign that does so. So, Van Helsing is at best a model of someone allowed to use divine/holy power in his hunting of the Undead, rather than someone trained in just a different kind of magic.

[Stormcrow]

Aug 28, 2013 11:30:16 GMT -6 llenlleawg said:

Aug 27, 2013 15:06:37 GMT -6 cleverkobold said:

I agree with you on spells, Stormcrow. I never really interpreted cleric spells as being granted to them by their gods (even though it blatantly says this in later editions).

Not later editions, actually. It's right there in Greyhawk, p. 8, "All cleric spells are considered as "divinely" given and as such a cleric with a wisdom factor of 3 would know all of the spells as well as would a cleric with an 18 wisdom factor."

True; I wasn't checking the sources of my memory of spells. However, it's not clear to me whether Greyhawk is clarifying the original rules or adding to them.

The appeal to Van Helsing here in interesting. Obviously, Van Helsing never casts spells or works magic rituals. He is, however, authorized by the Catholic Church to make use of consecrated Hosts in his endeavors against the Undead. When he seals Lucy in her tomb, burns the forehead of Mina, and guards Mina with a circle of protection, he is not doing so by using any special ritual. Rather, it is the holy/divine power of the Host itself that wards off of the Undead. Similarly, there is no ritual knowledge that allows the crucifix to hold vampires at bay; it is the holy Power (i.e. God) of whom the cross is a sign that does so. So, Van Helsing is at best a model of someone allowed to use divine/holy power in his hunting of the Undead, rather than someone trained in just a different kind of magic.

Good points. I read Dracula over a year ago, and my memory of the details is getting hazy. Certainly clerics turning undead is taken straight from the idea of presenting a crucifix to ward off evil spirits. The spells seem to have a much more Biblical theme to them.

In the end the cleric is more of a mishmash of various sources than anything else. While it arose in reaction to Sir Fang the vampire, it acquired other connotations when it was put in context of a vaguely Christian churchman. But I still don't think that "crusading priest to spread the message and faith of his god" is how a cleric was first perceived—he's still a free agent and spends his time rummaging around in dungeons rather than performing priestly functions. The point of the cleric is that he is "half magic, half fighting."

[cleverkobold]

Aug 28, 2013 3:47:09 GMT -6 librarylass said:

Aug 27, 2013 15:06:37 GMT -6 cleverkobold said:

I agree with you on spells, Stormcrow. I never really interpreted cleric spells as being granted to them by their gods (even though it blatantly says this in later editions). I like to think of them as the church's approved list of spells; while the spells that M-Us cast are not approved and will brand their user a heretic.

Would that suggest then that Magic users could learn to prepare the spells of the Cleric list? And what about instances where there is a discrepancy between the levels of certain spells?

This is what I do, but it is just a house rule. In the event of discrepancies, I use the M-U version.

Also, my bad about the 'other editions' remark, I didn't realize it said that in Greyhawk.

[librarylass]

Aug 29, 2013 13:01:09 GMT -6 cleverkobold said:

Aug 28, 2013 3:47:09 GMT -6 librarylass said:

Would that suggest then that Magic users could learn to prepare the spells of the Cleric list? And what about instances where there is a discrepancy between the levels of certain spells?

This is what I do, but it is just a house rule. In the event of discrepancies, I use the M-U version.

Also, my bad about the 'other editions' remark, I didn't realize it said that in Greyhawk.

Hm. That's... interesting. That's actually really interesting.

[Porphyre]

You can also use the Research rules: if a MU wants to have a clerical spell, he can put time & gold into it , research it and then put it in his spellbook.

[Red Baron]

This article suggests replacing (or merging) undead with demons, making clerics demon hunters, and giving them a cultish dark side.

What if all cleric magic is disallowed by the church, and gained through secret cult worship to some demon-prince or planar being that the cleric obeys due to his drive to destroy these horrors being greater than his respect for church law or his own soul.

(Also was it baphomet the knights templar worshiped? Too cool. I'm pretty sure he's in one of the monster manuals or fiend folios. Adding him to my list of higher powers right now)

[geoffrey]

Aug 26, 2013 22:07:49 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

After reading Lovecraft's the Lurker in the Dark last night, I like the idea of cleric as a man tasked with the repression of a constant and relentless emergence of evil creatures and cults.

If all the gods and higher beings in the universe were evil deities and demons with incomprehensible and alien, yet sinister, goals, with which wizards bargained and paid homage for their eldritch arts, then from whom would a clerics saintly miracles be bestowed? A cleric can't very well receive spells from a being he's working against. Or should a cleric in such a setting be stripped of these classic biblical powers in favor of a knowledge of alchemy and of the anatomy and weaknesses of the unearthly entities he must slay.

Edit: The Haunter of the Dark

How about clerics being the servants of Patrick Wetmore's orbital gods?
link: www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=52522

[Porphyre]

Sept 1, 2013 21:36:06 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

This article suggests replacing (or merging) undead with demons, making clerics demon hunters, and giving them a cultish dark side.

What if all cleric magic is disallowed by the church, and gained through secret cult worship to some demon-prince or planar being that the cleric obeys due to his drive to destroy these horrors being greater than his respect for church law or his own soul.

(Also was it baphomet the knights templar worshiped? Too cool. I'm pretty sure he's in one of the monster manuals or fiend folios. Adding him to my list of higher powers right now)

Certains Chrch Fathers tried to explain the existance of Revenants by demonic possession: since -according to canon faith- all souls were supposed to go to Heaven or Hell (or maybe Purgatory), the walking corpses could only be animted by some malign spirit inhabiting the dea erson's body.

In this perspective, undead are "minor" demons.