Are the Monster Summoning Spells Too Ridiculously Weak?

[oakesspalding]

Just thinking about it, without actually ever refereeing or playing a game where Monster Summoning was actually used, the spells seem awfully ineffective for the spell levels given. For example, Monster Summoning I is a 3rd level spell along with Fire Ball. But wouldn't you much rather hurl a fire ball than summon 1-3 Skeletons, Kobolds or Goblins to join the fray for 6 rounds? Admittedly, Monster Summoning I states that if a "relatively small" monster is rolled for, you get 1-6 of them, but as one steps up the ladder, so to speak, with Monster Summoning II and higher you only get "1 or 2" or merely a "single" monster of the appropriate level. So a 9th level Magic-User might only get 1-2 4th level Fighting-Men to help him out during a (presumably) 9th levelish fight, and an 11th level Magic-User might only get a measly Ogre. Also, admittedly, not all spells can be as powerful as Fire Ball, but still...

True, you might get something somewhat better-the 9th level Magic-User might get 1-2 Wights-but there's a good chance that he won't (and even 2 Wights don't seem that great to me in a 9th level fight), and is it really worth sacrificing the memorization of another nifty 5th level spell to take that chance?

On the other hand, I think the idea of the spell is very cool.

Has anyone had any relevant experience here? What about sliding the progression of the spell down 1 or 2 notches, so to speak, so that Monster Summoning I is available as a 1st level spell, Monster Summoning II is available as a 2nd level spell, and so on. Or would that make the spells too powerful?

[scottenkainen]

That's exactly what "3E" did with the Monster Summoning spells.

My son loves summoning spells when he plays. They may not be as efficient as fireballs and lightning bolts at killing, but there's a lot to be said for putting more meat shields that *aren't* your fellow PCs between you and monsters. So I see them more as defensive spells than offensive spells.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

[cooper]

I think it was alderron who mentioned he didn't like these spells because they were too gamist and were difficult to make sense of in verisimilitude--and when I read his argument I fully agreed and decided to not use the spell any longer, but reading the spell description in Greyhawk, it reads to me like what it does is it physically summons creatures from the dungeon you are on to come to your aid, more like "call monster" instead of teleportation summon. It's a short term geas of someone in the area.

By employing this spell the magic-user calls to his aid a monster appearing on the MONSTER LEVEL TABLES level 1....they depart when the spell ceases to function

I think it shouldn't be a gate/open a magic portal and a monster steps out. This would explain why it takes 1-4 rounds in the Ad&d version (as it takes time for the creatures to walk over). So it gives you 1d3 or 1d6 henchmen for a few minutes. It is useful outside of combat as well. Summoned humanoids (summon as in compelled to walk toward you and serve you for a few minutes) like a Theurgist summoned with the Monster Summoning II spell will have 3/2 spells. Pretty useful to have 1-2 short term apprentices like that or to have an ogre or giant from nearby come lift something for you, or a wandering wraith in the forrest tell you where the entrance to the dungeon is.

Good spells when seen in this light and errily powerful to compel nearby creatures to serve you and quite useful even out of combat. In conjunction with the extension spells (which I include as wizard robes--even going so far as to start wizards with magic robes of extention I at the start of play] could last over 10 minutes.

Certainly necessary to be 3rd+ level spells and should be tailored to the wandering monster tables while in a dungeon, and random encounter table when outdoors, and the DMG city encounter table when in a town.

[talysman]

Interesting reading, cooper.

As for comparing Fireball to Monster Summoning I, which would you, a 5th level M-U, rather do: a maximum of 5 dice damage, or a maximum of 18 dice damage? Because if you can summon up to 3 1st level monsters for 6 rounds of combat, that's your damage potential. Assuming you don't summon measly little centipedes that do only half damage -- plus poison...

[Red Baron]

I always thought of as a non combat spell.

Find a strange mirror or a seemingly innocent chest? Why not have a couple of berserkers take a poke around before you yourself succumb to the contact poison or get teleported several floors deeper into the dungeon. Perhaps those giant bats could detect an invisible object with their sonar or fly you across a chasm. Maybe the band of elves easily picked up all those hidden doors you passed right by without noticing (which lead to treasure) and can fill in your map a bit.

[inkmeister]

Not to judge the rules as written, but rather to offer up something else: powerful summonings often go hand in hand with offerings or promises to powerful beings. I think of the Elric stories, where Elric got help from various Insect Lords, Elemental Lords, the Chaos Lord Arioch, and so on. Usually this came at a cost, or some sort of understanding. For instance, when Elric summoned help from the insect lord, he was told not to do so again, that whatever debt the insect beings owed was now paid off.

I think D&D should tap more into this sort of thing. Rather than a simple mechanical spell, there should be more dealings with dark and otherworldly entities that come at a price. I think bringing this fictional aspect in will help balance the great powers that might be possible.

[Red Baron]

Aug 25, 2013 13:47:22 GMT -6 inkmeister said:

Not to judge the rules as written, but rather to offer up something else: powerful summonings often go hand in hand with offerings or promises to powerful beings. I think of the Elric stories, where Elric got help from various Insect Lords, Elemental Lords, the Chaos Lord Arioch, and so on. Usually this came at a cost, or some sort of understanding. For instance, when Elric summoned help from the insect lord, he was told not to do so again, that whatever debt the insect beings owed was now paid off.

I think D&D should tap more into this sort of thing. Rather than a simple mechanical spell, there should be more dealings with dark and otherworldly entities that come at a price. I think bringing this fictional aspect in will help balance the great powers that might be possible.

Monster summoning is a spell to simple to warrant contracts with the gods. In the three tier spell system from our conversation, I'd put any summoning short of binding demons, waking hurons, and conjuring elementals in the easy category that first level magic users have access to.

Whereas Elric makes pacts with the elementals when he needs to summon an army of little flame creatures and the like, he shouldn't have to waste a being as mighty as Lord Arioch on a simple summoning spell. Conjuring great powers form another plane is great sorcery, calling over some critters already in the dungeon to do a task or two over the course of a few minutes is a cantrap Cugel could manage.

On the three tier system, I'd say that the more difficult middle tier and potent tier spells would require contact with planar beings and deities, and bargains and quests for them to attain the use of spells. Less complex arts might need only a few crushed carbuncles, minotaur skulls, cockatrice blood, griffon beaks, vampire eyes, rare herbs from the back of the DMG, parchment of human skin, and other expensive items, to be used up in rituals while cramming that spell into the recesses of the magician's brain. Difficult magic would require a wizard to quest for a specific tome or crown that must be sought out to be offered to the planar being for it to sponsor the wizard's use of the spell in the future in addition to finding rare components each time it is memorized.

Magic is dangerous stuff. I wouldn't consider monster summoning worthy of a great elemental or demon's attention.

[scottyg]

Aug 25, 2013 9:46:23 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

That's exactly what "3E" did with the Monster Summoning spells.

My son loves summoning spells when he plays. They may not be as efficient as fireballs and lightning bolts at killing, but there's a lot to be said for putting more meat shields that *aren't* your fellow PCs between you and monsters. So I see them more as defensive spells than offensive spells.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

This is how I use them. Primarily to keep the enemy off of you while you cast other spells. Fireball might fit the situation, but it sucks when you get hit before you finish casting.
That fireball/lightning bolt might quickly destroy your enemy, as well as everything valuable in its area of affect.
Think there might be some pit traps in this corridor? The summoned ogre might make a better trap finder than the party's main fighter.
There are a lot of situations where the summon spells will come in handy, and a fireball/lightning bolt won't.

[inkmeister]

Good points Red Baron. I like how you are looking at this. I really like your take on dividing the magic system into 3 tiers. I buy your argument here about the summoning spell. Others make good points also, namely that the spell does seem to have a lot of utility for non combat and combat.

[Zulgyan]

When learning new spells is not automatic and the magic user must adquire them as treasure or bounty, spells don't really need to be balanced against each other. It is perfectly legit to have some spells more valued and sought after that others.

[Red Baron]

Aug 26, 2013 18:18:00 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

When learning new spells is not automatic and the magic user must adquire them as treasure or bounty, spells don't really need to be balanced against each other. It is perfectly legit to have some spells more valued and sought after that others.

Oh of course.

But just because a spell might be more highly guarded and valued by its few protective possessors, doesn't mean it shouldn't be unweildable by those who put the time and sacrifice into obtaining it. If a wizard wants to peruse some ancient spell and go to great expense and put himself in harms way to obtain it, than he should be able to cast it when he finally succeeds in its acquisition. Thats part of what I don't like about the spell levels system.

[Vile Traveller]

Aug 25, 2013 10:21:10 GMT -6 cooper said:

[...] it reads to me like what it does is it physically summons creatures from the dungeon you are on to come to your aid, more like "call monster" instead of teleportation summon. It's a short term geas of someone in the area.

I get that impression, too, but it leaves the problem of what the summoned monsters do when the spell ends ...

[scottyg]

My impression is that the summoned monsters "bamf" on the scene, and then pop out when the spell expires. Not only does the AD&D version require 1-4 rounds, it states, 'These monsters will appear in the spot, within spell range, desired by the magic-user'. I've had spell casters use this spell to try to summon monsters on the other side of a gate or portcullis to get the key, pull the lever, etc. to get through the barrier. I do require the caster be able to see the spot though, so they couldn't do it through a solid door.

[Deleted]

I strongly suspect the spells were set at that level based on what Rob and Ernie did with them, since they were Gary's two busiest players.

Plus, Dave was ALWAYS cheap with stuff.

A lot of OD&D was determined by how Rob and Ernie played. Remember Tomb of Horrors? That nightmare module that killed all your favorite player characters and made you cry?

A fifteen year old kid (Ernie) beat it on his first run-through.

[scottyg]

Ernie's a killer. I remember a story where he was DMing at a con for a low level group that ended up on the 6th level of his dungeons by sloping passages. One of Ernie's friends leaned in and whispered, "They're going to die". Ernie responded, "I didn't make them go down that ramp".

[Lord Cias]

Monster summoning I plus polymorph other = whatever monster you want.

[oakesspalding]

Thank you everyone. More and more I realize that just thinking about a gaming problem, even thinking really hard (at least for me) about it, is no substitute for actual play experience.