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Post by kent on Jul 29, 2013 5:52:09 GMT -6
The idea here is that someone can ask questions as they are reading through the books in the expectation that the answer is known to those who are experienced with OD&D, being trivial and uncontroversial. That is, it is not appropriate to debate the subtleties, ambiguities and confusions here. If a query touches on a controversial subject then a simply stating interpretations without argument would be most helpful.
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1. Is a 'turn' used in the same sense as a combat round rather than the AD&D 10 round turn.
2. M&T p8: 'Giants act as mobile light catapults'
How does that work in OD&D? Damage? Target a group of 10/20 soldiers all taking damage?
3. Here is a point for *clarification* - Greyhawk pg 11:
' ... there is a chance that the one being pick-pocketed may detect the thief. To determine this, for each level above 5th, the victim has a +5% chance of detecting the 'lift', so a 10th level, for example, would reduce the possibility of a successful attempt by 25%. ie if a base 100%, it reduces to 75%.'
So lets take a 7th level thief on a 7th level fighter. Base 60%. I take it this means: 01-50% success; 51-60% fail and discovered; 61-100% fail and not discovered. Yes?
4. Is the Clerics Turning ability a once per encounter affair?
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Post by Stormcrow on Jul 29, 2013 7:45:39 GMT -6
it is not appropriate to debate the subtleties, ambiguities and confusions here. Good luck with that. Frankly, if I want a straightforward answer to a rules question, I'll create a new thread and ask for straightforward answers. Sometimes. Its use in the original box was very loose, meaning both one-minute combat periods and ten-minute movement periods. The clear distinction between turns and rounds had not yet been established. This clause is only relevant when bringing a D&D giant into a Chainmail battle. When a party fights a giant, just roll to hit on Attack Matrix II: Monsters Attacking and, if a hit is scored, two dice for damage. Referee's call whether the boulder can hit more than one character. Correct. Not specified, referee's call. Here's what I prefer: The cleric's faith is strong enough to turn two dice worth of undead hit dice at one time. If the composition of undead changes during the encounter (e.g., the turned undead flee the encounter, leaving more undead; dispelling undead counts as changing the composition of the remaining undead), the cleric may refocus on other undead and turn again. Once a failure to turn occurs, however, the cleric's faith wavers and no further turning in that encounter is possible. The same undead may be turned in a later encounter, as the cleric has had time to bolster his faith. |
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Post by kent on Jul 29, 2013 8:44:40 GMT -6
it is not appropriate to debate the subtleties, ambiguities and confusions here. Good luck with that. Frankly, if I want a straightforward answer to a rules question, I'll create a new thread and ask for straightforward answers. You misunderstood, I enjoy argument, Im saying simply present your reading without baggage from previous debates for the sake of readability. Debates can be linked to. Ta for the responses above. 1. What about the number of spells which can be used 'per adventure'. This is clearly much more limiting than the usual spells per day. The impression is that a wizard doesn't carry his books around, for many reasons and so should be quite a home bird, not venturing far from his base, or even more likely he makes his base right in a dungeon he is exploring and actually lives there. 2. The cleric must choose Law or Chaos at 7th level. This means only that in the case where he was neutral from the beginning he must shift alignment but otherwise he does not shift alignment. Yes? |
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Post by kent on Jul 29, 2013 8:48:14 GMT -6
Sometimes. Its use in the original box was very loose, meaning both one-minute combat periods and ten-minute movement periods. The clear distinction between turns and rounds had not yet been established. What about potions lasting for 6 turns? That's 1 hour? |
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Post by Stormcrow on Jul 29, 2013 12:12:08 GMT -6
What about the number of spells which can be used 'per adventure'. This is clearly much more limiting than the usual spells per day. There is no difference between spells per adventure and spells per day. The point is you have a spell until you use it, and you can't use it again until you memorize it, fully rested. Apparently so. Or, I imagine, he can opt not to rise further in level and remain neutral. If the potion is relevant to things that are done during exploration, that's one hour. If it's relevant to things that happen in an encounter, that's six minutes. It's up to the referee to decide. Gary wasn't trying to be very precise with these things. |
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Post by kent on Jul 29, 2013 13:08:21 GMT -6
What about the number of spells which can be used 'per adventure'. This is clearly much more limiting than the usual spells per day. There is no difference between spells per adventure and spells per day. The point is you have a spell until you use it, and you can't use it again until you memorize it, fully rested. The implication for me is that MUs don't adventure with their spellbooks. There is a J Vance story to this effect where someone learns spells and goes away for a few days. Memorize and go on the adventure and if it takes a week, tough, you can cast each spell memorized once. Vance's wizards tend to have manses of course. It seems a bit of a stretch that Gygax meant to say 'day' but said 'adventure' by mistake. |
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Post by talysman on Jul 29, 2013 13:56:45 GMT -6
1. What about the number of spells which can be used 'per adventure'. This is clearly much more limiting than the usual spells per day. The impression is that a wizard doesn't carry his books around, for many reasons and so should be quite a home bird, not venturing far from his base, or even more likely he makes his base right in a dungeon he is exploring and actually lives there. A wizard *could* carry books around; the rules explicitly mention the cost of duplicate spellbooks. The problem is not so much where to keep your spellbooks as it is having a safe place and a lot of time to prep the spells you're going to use on the adventure. Since the rules mention equating 1 week between game sessions to 1 week of downtime between adventures, I think the implication is that it takes a good part of a day to prep spells. If a wizard cleared out a section of dungeon, set up camp, and posted guards around the perimeter, presumably the wizard could prep new spells. Otherwise, the spell progression really is "spells per adventure", not "spells per day", although I've heard house rules to the contrary. 2. The cleric must choose Law or Chaos at 7th level. This means only that in the case where he was neutral from the beginning he must shift alignment but otherwise he does not shift alignment. Yes? As I understand it, this text changed from printing to printing. But that's the way I interpret it: Neutral clerics can only progress to 6th level unless they pick a side and switch to Law/Chaos. I see patriarchs as the founders of new religious orders, sects, or heresies (for Chaos;) Neutrals, as fence-sitters in the cosmic battle, go with the status quo, so they can't truly lead or guide anyone along the right (or wrong) path. |
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Post by kent on Jul 30, 2013 9:23:02 GMT -6
OK thanks so far.
1. M&M p11: CON 9-12 -- 60% to 90% survival
This is specifically for surviving the Raise Dead spell?
Spells:
2. No magic missile, bizarre.
3. Slow and haste have no effects described. Do some DMs affect action by as much as say five times normal?
4. Hold person, monster. Do DMs tend to rule that this results in an automatic kill if desired the following round? Any monster?
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I broke my own rule about not debating a point in this thread, I guess OD&D begs it, anyway moving on:
The turn as 1 or 10 mins is bugging me, I thought I had a handle on which spells were which. generally going for longer, until the FLY spell, fly at 12" per turn, that has to be a turn of 1 minute, right?
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Post by Stormcrow on Jul 30, 2013 9:50:15 GMT -6
M&M p11: CON 9-12 -- 60% to 90% survival This is specifically for surviving the Raise Dead spell? It's for any life-threatening shock to the system that doesn't otherwise have a saving throw. Hadn't been invented yet. Maybe they do. However, I suspect the same spells in Chainmail were what Gary had in mind, which would make a Slow Spell cause victims simply to move at half-speed and a Haste Spell cause recipients to move 50% faster. The meaning of Hold Person is unclear from its description, but its name pretty much fixes that: it holds the target in place. I see no reason why a vicious magic-user could not then kill the held creature. If you're asking whether you have to attack and roll for damage each round, I'd say you're being overly bound by the rules. If you can slit an unresisting victim's throat, you kill him regardless of hit points. Yes, any monster, where monster in this context means everything not a relatively mundane, man-like being. I assume so, since flying only 120 feet or yards in 10 minutes seems silly. A magic-user Levitating in a strong breeze moves faster than that. |
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Post by kent on Jul 30, 2013 12:00:15 GMT -6
4. Hold person, monster. Do DMs tend to rule that this results in an automatic kill if desired the following round? Any monster? The meaning of Hold Person is unclear from its description, but its name pretty much fixes that: it holds the target in place. I see no reason why a vicious magic-user could not then kill the held creature. If you're asking whether you have to attack and roll for damage each round, I'd say you're being overly bound by the rules. If you can slit an unresisting victim's throat, you kill him regardless of hit points. In AD&D I either use the assassination table or rule it is automatic for human types but say for example a crocodile held by a weedy magician with a knife - Im not ruling that is an instant kill. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 13:24:14 GMT -6
2. M&T p8: 'Giants act as mobile light catapults' How does that work in OD&D? Damage? Target a group of 10/20 soldiers all taking damage? They can throw a rock for whatever range a light catapult has in CHAINMAIL, and it's got a 3 1/2 inch hit radius just like CHAINMAIL. Normal men are in trouble, I don't remember how much damage it does to supernormals; I think 2 dice. OD&D assumes without saying that you are intimately familiar with CHAINMAIL. 4. Is the Clerics Turning ability a once per encounter affair? Once per combat turn. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2013 13:25:57 GMT -6
This clause is only relevant when bringing a D&D giant into a Chainmail battle. When a party fights a giant, just roll to hit on Attack Matrix II: Monsters Attacking and, if a hit is scored, two dice for damage. Referee's call whether the boulder can hit more than one character. You may play it however you want, but that's not how Gary, Rob, and Dave did it. Straight by CHAINMAIL rules; CHAINMAIL applied unless something in D&D directly contravened it. Giants were awful to fight. |
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Post by Stormcrow on Jul 30, 2013 14:19:28 GMT -6
CHAINMAIL applied unless something in D&D directly contravened it. catapults determine hit zone by calling out range and deviation, which are then measured on the play area. Without miniatures in D&D, how were hits from a giant's boulder determined? Were all hits in the target area instantly lethal, or does the mention of giants doing two dice of damage supersede that? Did D&D giants have the Light/Heavy Catapult's rate of fire of every two/three turns? |
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Post by makofan on Jul 31, 2013 10:48:06 GMT -6
I now use Hold Person as a Charm spell with a duration, not a paralysis thing at all. Why is it a higher level spell? Because it gives a -2 penalty to save for one creature, or can affect multiple creatures.
M&M pg 25
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Post by kent on Aug 1, 2013 4:37:40 GMT -6
I now use Hold Person as a Charm spell with a duration, not a paralysis thing at all. Interesting. You know, attacking a sleeping Dragon gets you merely a +2 to hit so I doubt hold person is intended to facilitate automatic kills. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 1, 2013 5:51:07 GMT -6
The cleric must choose Law or Chaos at 7th level. This means only that in the case where he was neutral from the beginning he must shift alignment but otherwise he does not shift alignment. Yes? I'm sure we have an old thread on this somewhere, but this is an interesting gray area. If you look at older printings of M&M (1st-4th, I believe) the text reads that clerics must be law or chaos. If you look at newer printings of M&M (pretty sure 5th and later) it adds the "of 7th level" thing. My group started out on an early printing and made clerics choose at the start. It wasn't until years later that we encountered folks with a later printing and found out that an edit had been made to the rules. I find this sort of a strange rule, as clerics have so many spells which can be reversed so it's to your advantage not to pick alignment. As most of my campaigns are low-level affairs, my players would have essentially never had to make this choice. |
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Post by kent on Aug 1, 2013 6:08:19 GMT -6
If you look at older printings of M&M (1st-4th, I believe) the text reads that clerics must be law or chaos. If you look at newer printings of M&M (pretty sure 5th and later) it adds the "of 7th level" thing. My group started out on an early printing and made clerics choose at the start. It wasn't until years later that we encountered folks with a later printing and found out that an edit had been made to the rules. I find this sort of a strange rule, as clerics have so many spells which can be reversed so it's to your advantage not to pick alignment. As most of my campaigns are low-level affairs, my players would have essentially never had to make this choice. That is interesting. I suppose the typical friar is not strident enough to be a champion of law or chaos so the neutral temperate cleric has a place. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Aug 1, 2013 18:35:53 GMT -6
You know, attacking a sleeping Dragon gets you merely a +2 to hit Fantasy tales inform us that even a "sleeping" dragon is still a dangerous thing to be wary of. So I read the mere (free turn of attacks at) +2 to hit as being equivalent to a surprise turn against the dragon; especially given the rather high probability that an encountered dragon will be caught napping. |
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