clerics and turn undead

[bestialwarlust]

So I was thinking of adding a house rule that would allow non clerics turn undead, if the cleric has a holy symbol to bless. By blessing a holy symbol the person in question would get a limited time to hold an undead at bay as long as that's all they did for the round. Maybe give the duration that the holy symbol could be used equal to the level of the cleric that did the bless in rounds. This would require holy water, several minutes of chanting and prayer over the holy symbol. Should this give the person with the holy symbol temporary turn at the level of the cleric? or maybe just hold them back?

[Finarvyn]

I would only do this if I was running a non-Clerics campaign. Otherwise, the cleric starts to become pointless. "Hey, we can load up on healing potions and Billy there can try to turn the undead. Friar Bob is no longer needed!"

[bestialwarlust]

True but that's why I was trying to think of a time limit. Something a villager might find more useful but that an adventurer could get some use out of but limited.

[waysoftheearth]

There are already protection scrolls which all characters can use. Why not just hand out one of these instead?

[Azafuse]

IMHO a blessed weapon could be a nice idea: an almost normal weapon, with no granted bonus to hit/damage, but able to spread a radiant halo 1/day or even 1/week.

[talysman]

I would just give holy water the power to turn undead as a 1st level cleric.

[Deleted]

What would be the purpose, in game terms, of allowing this?

[bestialwarlust]

More musing than game terms at this point. Just a minor "blessing" that a cleric could bestow on a follower. For example the cleric and his henchman are in the crypt of a vampire. The vampire awakens, they cleric has to turn his attention away momentarily while he gets out his vampire kit of destruction. He hands brave concord his holy symbol to hold the beast at bay so it doesn't tear his throat out in the mean time.

[Deleted]

D&D already works that way.

"Vampires cannot abide the smell of garlic, the face of a mirror, or the sight of cross. They will fall back from these if strongly presented."

D&D, Volume 2, "Monsters and Treasure," page 10.

[bestialwarlust]

Jul 27, 2013 12:49:32 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

D&D already works that way.

"Vampires cannot abide the smell of garlic, the face of a mirror, or the sight of cross. They will fall back from these if strongly presented."

D&D, Volume 2, "Monsters and Treasure," page 10.

Thanks I missed that line!

[scottenkainen]

I often wondered if these vulnerabilities shouldn't be moved to the weaker undead. Make ghouls unable to abide the smell of garlic, or skeletons and zombies unable to face a cross. High-level PCs don't need the help of these disadvantages as much.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

[Deleted]

Well, are those things present in any folklore, movies, or books? Because the restrictions on vampires are right out of the "Dracula" movies.

[scottenkainen]

If I went too much by movies, then all vampires in my game would be sparkly pedophiles by now...

[ravenheart87]

Jul 27, 2013 15:02:48 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

If I went too much by movies, then all vampires in my game would be sparkly pedophiles by now...

Then you're watching a bit different movies than the authors of the original game did.

[Porphyre]

Question is : how does the referee rule that the symbol was "strongly presented"?
By a "turn undead" roll as a cleric? According to Charisma score?

[Porphyre]

Jul 27, 2013 14:42:29 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

I often wondered if these vulnerabilities shouldn't be moved to the weaker undead. Make ghouls unable to abide the smell of garlic, or skeletons and zombies unable to face a cross. High-level PCs don't need the help of these disadvantages as much.

~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

Actually , it's perfect for low level characters who otherwise wouldn't  have the slightiest chance against Count Fangula. 

When all you have is a lowly Acolyte, the garlic and the crosses will buy you the little extra time you need to make a hasty rum to the next exit. 

Against zombias? "Pah! Pass the salt around!"

[Porphyre]

Jul 27, 2013 10:49:30 GMT -6 talysman said:

I would just give holy water the power to turn undead as a 1st level cleric.

Or maybe just cause them to check morale. It's like throwing acid to them (I would check morale if some maniac started throwing acid at me).

[waysoftheearth]

Jul 27, 2013 14:42:29 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

I often wondered if these vulnerabilities shouldn't be moved to the weaker undead. Make ghouls unable to abide the smell of garlic, or skeletons and zombies unable to face a cross. High-level PCs don't need the help of these disadvantages as much.

Skeletons and zombies are just animated remains without will or intelligence. They're immune to morale checks, so it's curious that they should be subject to turning.

The "higher" undead are monsters with their own will and intelligence, and they're subject to morale checks (and presumably regular reaction checks also). It seems right that Holy water, garlic, mirrors, Holy symbols etc. should cause these monsters a morale check... given that the turn undead check seems pretty much to be one.

[coffee]

There's an awful lot of talk about 'holy symbols' in this thread, but the equipment list in Men & Magic doesn't have that item on it.

It specifically has a cross.

As Gronan pointed out, Vampires (as taken from the Dracula movies) 'cannot abide the sight of a cross.'

Doesn't say in my copy anywhere that it takes a Cleric to wield it.


Just wanted to put that out there.

[talysman]

Jul 28, 2013 6:06:56 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Jul 27, 2013 10:49:30 GMT -6 talysman said:

I would just give holy water the power to turn undead as a 1st level cleric.

Or maybe just cause them to check morale. It's like throwing acid to them (I would check morale if some maniac started throwing acid at me).

That's basically what "Turn Undead" is. Cleric commands them in the name of God to depart, and the undead check to see if they are frightened.

Jul 28, 2013 8:27:18 GMT -6 coffee said:

There's an awful lot of talk about 'holy symbols' in this thread, but the equipment list in Men & Magic doesn't have that item on it.

It specifically has a cross.

As Gronan pointed out, Vampires (as taken from the Dracula movies) 'cannot abide the sight of a cross.'

Doesn't say in my copy anywhere that it takes a Cleric to wield it.


Just wanted to put that out there.

Also, Men & Magic doesn't even say that a cleric needs a cross or any kind of holy symbol. Turn Undead is not really described at all.

Which, I think, is superior to the whole "it's a magic power based around a cleric's holy symbol" interpretation.

[Porphyre]

That's basically what "Turn Undead" is. Cleric commands them in the name of God to depart, and the undead check to see if they are frightened.

Except that the "Turn Undead" ability of clerics is level-dependant. A first level cleric wouldn't have a chance to impress a Vampire.

[waysoftheearth]

Jul 28, 2013 8:27:18 GMT -6 coffee said:

There's an awful lot of talk about 'holy symbols' in this thread, but the equipment list in Men & Magic doesn't have that item on it.

It specifically has a cross.

As Gronan pointed out, Vampires (as taken from the Dracula movies) 'cannot abide the sight of a cross.'

Doesn't say in my copy anywhere that it takes a Cleric to wield it.


Just wanted to put that out there.

That's awesomeness coffee. Where's that d**n exalt button gone??

[Deleted]

Hey, Coffee, it specifically does NOT say it requires a cleric to wield a cross!

Of course, now you know why the Vampire had some hired orc mercenaries. You start waving the cross around and the Orc says "I'll take that!" (grab)

[coffee]

Jul 29, 2013 10:28:52 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Hey, Coffee, it specifically does NOT say it requires a cleric to wield a cross!

Of course, now you know why the Vampire had some hired orc mercenaries. You start waving the cross around and the Orc says "I'll take that!" (grab)

Exactly!

Some DM's seem to forget that intelligent monsters will act intelligently. (I've seen some guys who treated everything as a bundle of stats and special powers, whether that made sense or not. I'm no longer in those games...)


As cheap as crosses are, if you plan to meet a vampire everybody in the party can carry 2 or 3. Because intelligent players can act intelligently, too...

[Deleted]

Or paint a cross on your shield, which has been polished to a mirror shine.