Gut Check on PDF Policy

[calithena]

Hi all -

The idea behind having the print version ready before the PDF was (a) to celebrate our old-school roots; (b) print products look and feel cooler, create more investment for those who read them, and naturally serve as tools to the reflective/contemplative time that I think a lot of us enjoy with this hobby; (c) to encourage more people to buy the print version so that more 'real' copies of Fight On! would exist out there in the world.

Does this make sense? I guess I've heard from the critics of the PDF policy already, but I'm wondering if I'm not making some kind of mistake. I guess a fourth reason (d) would be to create a kind of delayed gratification - if you really want it you can get this print one right now, wait for it in the mail, etc., but if you want to wait while all these cool reviews are going up, you can do that too, but you'll have to get the issue once it's been out for a while.

I'm not absolutely attached to the current policy, but I guess it feels right to me emotionally. But if there were people, especially people who have already contributed to or purchased the magazine, who thought the current policy could use re-working, I'd be interested to hear from them too.

Expressions of support are always welcome too of course.

The PDF of issue 1 will be released May 25, only a little more than a month after the print version, because I want people to be able to buy it well before the adventure contest due date arrives so they can see a little of what we're about before submitting. That's within the 1-4 months after print policy I already posted, but earlier than I would probably like to do in general.

Thoughts? (Try to be nice if you disagree with each other.)

[makofan]

Do you need to make money on this venture? If not, then do it as you want. I think those who say they support old-school gaming and won't spend $40/year on a magazine for that are just being cheap.

[coffee]

I don't have a problem with making Fight On! available as a PDF. These days, a lot of people seem to like them.

Me, I'm old school enough to want a printed copy. I have the first issue, and I'm going to get the second, etc. But I can see where others might prefer a PDF.

[calithena]

I'm not in this for the money, that's for sure. My interest is mostly how PDFs can best be used (or not) to support this particular creative venture.

I gave some thoughts as to why I picked the delayed PDF (as opposed to instant or no PDF) structure. They still sort of feel right to me but if people thought instant or no PDF was a better approach, this would probably be the thread to do that in. Also, if you like the delayed PDF, what is the shortest normal delay that you think would give a serious incentive to buy print instead?

[jrients]

Cal,

I prefer print over PDF. I generally buy the print version when both are available.

That being said, if one goal of the magazine is evangelism, then a PDF gets the message to more people. Also, S. John Ross once told me that simultaneous PDF and print release is the "sexiest" choice. I'm pretty sure that cat is way smarter than me and I know he's more experienced than any of us in the field of e-publishing. He was doing it before the Monte Cook made it cool. If I was the editor (NOT volunteering, just a hypothetical) I would go with simultaneous release. On the other hand, if we could cheaply and easily get print copies to Argentina and such then I would consider being a neo-Luddite jerk and eschewing PDF altogether.

But I'm not the editor. It's not my call. And I trust your judgement.

[busman]

I'll always get a print copy, but I could understand others only wanting a PDF. I agree with all of the reasons you have for delaying the PDF version, but really when it comes down to it, it's your show. Do what you think is best, cal.

PS: The only thing that would annoy me is if you stopped allowing the print version at some point, by trying to make it collectors or something. For example, it annoys me to no end that I can't get a print version of KQ. I have a buddy who has let me read his ish 1 and 2, but because I can't get my own print versions of the past issues, I haven't signed up for a regular subscription for the magazine.

[Zulgyan]

The idea behind having the print version ready before the PDF was (a) to celebrate our old-school roots; (b) print products look and feel cooler, create more investment for those who read them, and naturally serve as tools to the reflective/contemplative time that I think a lot of us enjoy with this hobby; (c) to encourage more people to buy the print version so that more 'real' copies of Fight On! would exist out there in the world.

QFT.

In my ideal world, I would go with no PDF at all. If the zine does provoke genuine interest and not mere curiosity or "stuff hoarding" desires, make them get a real copy, where the zine shows it's true value.

Anyway, that's just my ideal world.

If this is too extreme I would release the PDF copy about a week later to the print release of the following issue.

But I'm not the editor. It's not my call. And I trust your judgement

+1

;D

[greyharp]

I think at least a month after the release of the print edition is good. It would be a bugger to order the print edition, then while impatiently waiting for it to arrive, find the pdf version is selling like hot cakes (possibly to the detriment of the former). I'm still waiting for my print copy to arrive in Australia, 2 weeks, five days and counting (lets hope Lulu didn't send it surface mail). If released too close together, it would be tempting to forget about the wait and go with the instant gratification option. And once that's done, the chances of then purchasing the print copy too are unlikely.

[calithena]

Zulg, I'm with you in theory, but in practice I guess I want people who really want FO! to be able to get it, and that means PDF in the modern world. Just not necessarily right away.

Jreints, good data, thanks.

Greyharp, that's exactly the psychology that made me want to defer releases to support print. Jreints, others, do you think it's worth it to try to stimulate that kind of decision making, or is the cost in turning PDF-only customers off by making them wait too great?

[Finarvyn]

I'd vote for the print version right away with the PDF as a delayed release. I think the fun of getting a magazine in the mail is really great, and getting a PDF in my in-box isn't nearly as great.

Heck, if you want make a two-fer deal where there is one cost for the print+PDF but the PDF is just delayed for a bit. Nothing wrong with having the PDF always a few weeks or a month behind the print version.

Just my two coppers.

[trollman]

Full disclosure: I haven't contributed to or bought a copy of Fight On!

My view is this, if you have no desire to make money or even to make back some of your costs, why not release it on pdf as soon as it's ready?

Releasing it for free on pdf ASAP does 3 things:
1. it gets it in the hands of more people, and faster
2. it increases advertising for OD&D, possibly bringing in new blood (I happened upon this site by happening upon a post talking about FO; this site interested me enough to buy the pdfs for OD&D even though I had never seen the game "in person")
3. it increases the pool of people contributing to FO

[Melan]

I am entirely in support of the current policy.

[James Maliszewski]

I prefer a printed copy and almost always buy printed copies of any gaming products I want, even if they're available in PDF as well. That said, PDFs have become an increasingly accepted medium for gaming products and lots of people prefer that format. If, as others have said, the goal is evangelism about OD&D and old school games generally, I think it'd be wise to make the PDF version available at the time of release and for less money than the printed version. That's what I'd do, but I'd also do a number of other things that might not fit with your vision, so, ultimately, the call is yours.

[calithena]

The PDFs are going to be priced at ten cents a page, since that's the maximum I feel like I can charge for a PDF without ripping people off, and it makes the print version competitive.

This means that releasing the PDF at the time of print would make the magazine (and me) significantly more money. We're basically giving away the print issues, I feel I have to charge a little bit on my end to support costs, but it's almost all lulu's take. I don't really want to talk about money because I don't want it ever to be a significant consideration for this fanzine, but since people on the thread seem to be suggesting that a PDF would lose money somehow, let me be clear that it's just the opposite: because I want print to be pricewise competitive with PDF, the per unit take on PDFs is going to be way higher than the print take will ever be.

Jeff, James, you guys are major stakeholders in the magazine and you are pushing the idea that evangelism would be better served by immediate PDF release. I'm more on the other side so far but I think the consideration you're bringing up is important. Just to rehearse:

pros for delayed PDF: reasons I stated before; with I think (b) (creating a more committed readership and a greater sense of community) being most important among them; discourages casual readers who are likely to be less into what we do and more likely to generate bad publicity for us (note: virtually everything people are saying about us now is good! part of this is because we don't push or media blitz what we're doing on people who don't want it.)

cons for delayed PDF: really pisses some people off (I have gotten a small number of complaints, but there were a few people who wanted to be involved with the mag that have left because of the PDF policy); maybe means less 'evangelism' for the mag.

Do the pros win or the cons win?

jamesm, I am really, really interested in what you would do differently. This thread isn't the place for it but I really respect your work and opinions so if you want to drop me an email with your thoughts please do so.

[badger2305]

Calithena, I'm in agreement with your policies as stated. That having been said...

The reason for delaying the PDFs is to encourage an appreciation of in-print media as an old school presentation format. It's also to discourage the "instant-gratification" mindset where someone will download things and then never read them or appreciate them, yes? There are probably some other reasons, but let me toss out some alternatives, just as food for thought:

• Keep the delayed release policy for the PDF, but state very clearly when it will become available, say, a month after in-print release. That way people who prefer PDF will know when to get it.
  
• Release the PDF concurrent with the in-print version, but put in a specific encouragement for PDF buyers to get the in-print version to appreciate old school formatting. Watch to see how that works.
  
• Format the 'zine in digest sized pages (or the 6x9 format that Lulu uses). This single format change will encourage people to buy the print version, as it is harder to duplicate with a PDF when printed out. Release the PDF at the same time. That way, people who prefer electronic storage are happy, and people who want the print version will buy the "real thing."
  

You may have thought of one or all of these already; I'm just tossing out ideas.

[Zulgyan]

Ironically, I think that any kind of old-school evangelism (which I don't think that's really needed) won't work with an easy access to a PDF, IMHO.

Human nature values and finds attractive things that are "hard to get". If we "cheapen" and "down-grade" the magazine to a clearly inferior format, it will lose value. I will be less attractive. It will be like "just one more mag bewteen all that cheap stuff out there".

There is certain attraction to that which isn't distributed "as much as we can".

We don't need to go out to get people. Do we? Aren't we alright as we are? Old-school active evangelism generally "scares people away". A more passive attitude is better IMO.

People must come by themselves. They must see we are enjoying it. They must see that we enjoy the print mag. Then they'll start wondering "hey... there must be something to this I'm missing".

Have them search for the mag. We don't need to sell ourselves with loud noises and big capital letters in blogs and forums.

If we keep it like "a little club we all enjoy" it will become much more attractive. And the club has it's doors open wide for ANYONE to join. But we don't need to go out to convert people. It's not elitism, it's just a wiser strategy IMHO.

Honestly, people who just want the PDF are just "curious". They just want to flip the pages with their mouse, clic clic clic and it's over.

That is at least 90% of the cases.

If we don't get desperate for buyers, the zine will develop a more faithful and authentic crowd. Maybe more slowly, but more consistent.

Let's just be patient. We must have them desire the zine. Not the other way around.

We'll get MORE people interested in the long run if we don't become desperate from buyers and if we don't please PDF desires of those who are just curios or just want to "hoard stuff".

If the are interested, they'll buy the real thing. The price is cheap enough IMO, even if you live in an underdeveloped country as where I live.


Cheers!

[James Maliszewski]

May 14, 2008 6:37:54 GMT -6 calithena said:

jamesm, I am really, really interested in what you would do differently. This thread isn't the place for it but I really respect your work and opinions so if you want to drop me an email with your thoughts please do so.

Sure, I'll drop you a line later today, since I'm suffering from a Spring allergy/cold thing and my head's not quite right -- or even less right than usual anyway

Truth be told, though, I have no major complaints about Fight On! and am frankly amazed at what you've managed to give birth to. I feel like I'm on the ground floor of something remarkable and potentially hobby-changing. So, please, any nits I might pick are just that. They're the kinds of things I feel I can do because the foundation you've laid is so solid that all I have to do is look for little imperfections -- and, I should add, what I see as imperfections are not necessarily anything other than differences of taste and style and there's nothing wrong with that.

Anyway, I'll drop a line later.

[jrients]

May 14, 2008 7:54:58 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

Format the 'zine in digest sized pages (or the 6x9 format that Lulu uses). This single format change will encourage people to buy the print version, as it is harder to duplicate with a PDF when printed out. Release the PDF at the same time. That way, people who prefer electronic storage are happy, and people who want the print version will buy the "real thing.

It's not that hard to print two pages to a sheet and produce a readable booklet.

But I do like Lulu's 6x9 format.

[Zulgyan]

Truth be told, though, I have no major complaints about Fight On! and am frankly amazed at what you've managed to give birth to.

I'm also very impressed. I'm amazed with the buzz generated.

[coffee]

May 14, 2008 6:37:54 GMT -6 calithena said:

cons for delayed PDF: really pisses some people off (I have gotten a small number of complaints, but there were a few people who wanted to be involved with the mag that have left because of the PDF policy)

That's interesting.

Have you gotten any potential complaints from people who wouldn't contribute/participate if the PDF were available at the same time as the print product?

I mean, the object isn't to make money here; it's to get people participating in an old school revival community (as I understand it). Would that be better served by not including those who only want a PDF, or is the old school integrity of a print product more important?

[calithena]

That's kind of what I'm wondering, coffee. I mean, I agree with what Zulg posted at the top of this page in general at least.

If there are motivated people who would participate with PDF and wouldn't, or would in a much lesser way, without it, then that seems like a reason to go PDF for our community's sake.

On the other hand, if having the print issues in advance makes for better community somehow, then that might be a reason to keep things the way they are.

To answer coffee's question...is there anyone who just wouldn't want to be involved any more if we had PDF releases at the same time as print? You can PM or email me about this ([e-mail]) if you don't want to state your views publicly.

[Zulgyan]

If there are motivated people who would participate with PDF and wouldn't, or would in a much lesser way, without it, then that seems like a reason to go PDF for our community's sake.

Hmmmm... why should they care? This kind of people are kinda thinking more in themselves than in the good of the zine as a whole.

I'll be a bit hard here:

If someone comes in demanding conditions for his material to be submitted, I would kindly say them that this is not that type of place. I mean, who do they think they are? Who do they think we are? We are just a bunch of folks who enjoy old-school gaming. That's it. This is not about spreading our names through the Internet or gaining renown; not even about old-school evangelism IMO. This is about fun. This is about the pleasure of seeing the mail guy arriving, with a home-made zine full of stuff made by the wonderful people from this boards with whom we share and discuss about gaming almost on a daily basis. And the zine is full of gaming love I can say.

And the best thing is: anyone can be part of this unique, reborn approach to the hobby. And I don't care what game you play.

That is what old-school renaissance means to me. It's like recreating the hobby before it became a business. IMHO, that is what Fight On! is about. If we desire "community growth", I think that keeping this identity would be the most beneficial.

Anyway this is just my opinion. I will support the zine no matter whatever direction it takes, because for me, it's the zine what's important, and not my own desires.

Let us not desperate for contributors pleasing all their demands. If the zine becomes well regarded and valued, people will want to contribute.

I mean, look at issue nº1. ALL contributions where works of love and pure-hobbyist sharing and fun with the nice people here.

That is what Fight On! should be in my opinion. Submissions should be totally uninterested. No condition demands.

Sincerely,

Zulgyan, the politically incorrect guy

[coffee]

May 14, 2008 10:20:35 GMT -6 Zulgyan said:

That is what old-school renaissance means to me. It's like recreating the hobby before it became a business.

Yeah! That's how I feel about it, too. Have an exalt for putting it so well.

[calithena]

We're not desperate for contributors, at all, but at the same time we don't want to drive people away.

Zulg, people have their reasons. Maybe someone is a network administrator, does all their gaming stuff at work when there are no fires to put out, and as a result only works with word processors and electronic copy. Sure, he could read it at home and write there, but that's not what he does. Just for example.

I just want to make sure that if we tell that guy he has to wait a month or three for the release there's a good reason for doing it.

Really, this topic isn't such a big deal, I'm going to go back to working on gaming stuff (not to mention my job...) for a while. I mean in the end it doesn't really matter that much when we release the PDF. I just was interested in weighing the pros and cons of different approaches, given the community as it is. For purposes of this thread I'm not really interested in judging why people have the preferences they do or whether they 'ought' to have different ones.

[calithena]

You're totally right to emphasize fun and 'the hobby before it became a business' angle though. That is what it's all about.

[Zulgyan]

You can always send PDFs to contributors and people you trust and know and do have those legitimate reasons as the ones you said.

[brianm]

For my gaming use, I far prefer PDF. If I want to splice a houserule into my gaming booklet or have the adventure by itself, it's easy to cut-and-paste from a PDF or just print the pages I need. I'd hesitate before I'd cut up my hard-copy magazines, though, meaning that I need to lug around the entire magazine, even if I just need a two or three pages from it.

But as an author, there's nothing quite like the visceral feel of holding something solid in your hands that has your name on it. ;D

- Brian

[Deleted]

I bought the print version and thought it was really good. The delayed gratification was most enjoyable; everyday, I would check if we got a package and then my wife said, "you got something from Lulu. Who is Lulu?" It felt great ripping open that box and reading the fanzine.

But I can also see the other side of the coin for those that live in parts of the world that have delayed shipment times from Lulu. It is frustating to have to wait so long when the internet gives any publisher the ability to make their document available instantly to anyone.

My suggestion is to offer something "extra" in the print version. Maybe the proposed comic (for that old school feel) would only be in the print version but not in the PDF version?

Or offer only for the print version a subscription option which is sent automatically.

Or (this is all about marketing)...announce the release date of the next fanzine to be on MM/DD but those that buy a print version will get an early release of it which is MM/DD-30 days. (Rather than saying the PDF version is delayed, the print option is for early adopters.)

Or offer it in a different format in print like 6x9 which would be cool. (suggested up thread)

Or do what you are currently doing because it is working.

(I can understand the consternation of those who do not have access to quick Lulu service. The internet gives us this amazing ability to share a document to anyone in the world on real-time. Why not take advantage of this fact?)

[ffilz]

I've said it before, but I'll say it again:

There is about zero chance that I'll ever buy a print copy. Not because I wouldn't enjoy it, but simply because now that I am accountable to someone besides myself, I can no longer just fill as much of my house as I want with books. This has nothing to do with appreciation for old school. Sure, I do have (and will keep) a lot of old school stuff in print, but I got rid of the few issues of Dragon Magazine I had since I do have the Dragon CD-ROM.

As far as a delay, I would really appreciate the delay be as short as possible. If the PDF isn't available for 4 months after print, the excitement about the issue is going to be gone and the PDF may not see much interest at all.

Frank

[jimlotfp]

What's the usual time it takes for a person to receive the mag after ordering? Call it x days.

Release the pdf version say x + 5 days later. That way people can order it as soon as it's available and get their print version without worrying that pdf purchasers get it before they do, and then after that, let people decide for themselves which format they want.