Greyhawk hit dice using d6's

[Finarvyn]

As most of you know by now, I like the hit dice progression found in M&M over that from Greyhawk. Part of the reason is just that I like d6's better than d4's and other funky dice, another is that it gives the magic-user a "better" hit point progression (in my opinion).

I had a thought and wanted to share it. Suppose one liked the progression found in Greyhawk (and essentially AD&D) better. Could I come up with a system that used d6 hit dice but gave the same basic number sequence as the Greyhawk rules provided?

One simple "fix" might be to take every d4 and replace it with d6-1, but then a magic-user with 6d4 hit dice would end up with 6d6-6 and I wanted to avoid large negatives. The average might be the same, but I didn't like what it did to the number spread.

What I did was to take my spreadsheet and program in the Greyhawk seqence to determine the average number of hit points at each level. Then I created a sequence of d6 dice that would give the same average. When I created my spreadsheet I kept track of those pesky 0.5's but when I put together my results to share I decided to round those 0.5's up to 1's. This means that some of my averages are slightly off, but only by a half hit point and always in the player's favor. So sue me.


EDIT: I wanted to add a note on how I knew when to switch dice. Since a d6 has an average of 3.5, I didn't allow more than a +3 on one die before I looked to increase the number of dice.

[Finarvyn]

The cleric is already d6 hit dice, so he doesn't change much.

level 1 : 1 d6+ 0
level 2 : 2 d6+ 0
level 3 : 3 d6+ 0
level 4 : 4 d6+ 0
level 5 : 5 d6+ 0
level 6 : 6 d6+ 0
level 7 : 7 d6+ 0
level 8 : 8 d6+ 0
level 9 : 8 d6+ 1
level 10 : 8 d6+ 1
level 11 : 8 d6+ 2
level 12 : 8 d6+ 2
level 13 : 8 d6+ 3
level 14 : 8 d6+ 3
level 15 : 9 d6+ 0
level 16 : 9 d6+ 1
level 17 : 9 d6+ 1
level 18 : 9 d6+ 2
level 19 : 9 d6+ 2
level 20 : 9 d6+ 3

[Finarvyn]

The fighing man has d8's so he ends up gaining d6's faster. This could be handy if one uses an "extra attack per four HD" rule, dicussed in another thread.

level 1 : 1 d6+ 1
level 2 : 2 d6+ 2
level 3 : 3 d6+ 3
level 4 : 5 d6+ 1
level 5 : 6 d6+ 2
level 6 : 7 d6+ 3
level 7 : 9 d6+ 0
level 8 : 10 d6+ 1
level 9 : 11 d6+ 2
level 10 : 12 d6+ 1
level 11 : 12 d6+ 3
level 12 : 13 d6+ 1
level 13 : 13 d6+ 3
level 14 : 14 d6+ 2
level 15 : 15 d6+ 0
level 16 : 15 d6+ 2
level 17 : 16 d6+ 1
level 18 : 16 d6+ 3
level 19 : 17 d6+ 1
level 20 : 17 d6+ 3

[Finarvyn]

The magic-user does have a minus to his roll at first level because the d4 is smaller than a d6. Otherwise, he just progresses slower than expected.

level 1 : 1 d6- 1
level 2 : 1 d6+ 2
level 3 : 2 d6+ 1
level 4 : 2 d6+ 3
level 5 : 3 d6+ 2
level 6 : 4 d6+ 1
level 7 : 5 d6+ 0
level 8 : 5 d6+ 3
level 9 : 6 d6+ 2
level 10 : 7 d6+ 1
level 11 : 7 d6+ 3
level 12 : 8 d6+ 1
level 13 : 8 d6+ 2
level 14 : 8 d6+ 3
level 15 : 9 d6+ 0
level 16 : 9 d6+ 1
level 17 : 9 d6+ 2
level 18 : 9 d6+ 3
level 19 : 10 d6+ 1
level 20 : 10 d6+ 2

[Finarvyn]

The thief starts out like the MU, but at the end progresses more slowly.

level 1 : 1 d6- 1
level 2 : 1 d6+ 2
level 3 : 2 d6+ 1
level 4 : 2 d6+ 3
level 5 : 3 d6+ 2
level 6 : 4 d6+ 1
level 7 : 5 d6+ 0
level 8 : 5 d6+ 3
level 9 : 6 d6+ 2
level 10 : 7 d6+ 1
level 11 : 7 d6+ 1
level 12 : 7 d6+ 2
level 13 : 7 d6+ 2
level 14 : 7 d6+ 3
level 15 : 7 d6+ 3
level 16 : 8 d6+ 0
level 17 : 8 d6+ 1
level 18 : 8 d6+ 1
level 19 : 8 d6+ 2
level 20 : 8 d6+ 2

[coffee]

Very nice!

Does this presume dice add to the previous total, or do you recommend players reroll them all at each level? (I'm presuming the latter, but want to be clear.)

[dizzysaxophone]

Very cool idea! I'll definitely be kicking this one around in my head for a bit! I'm curious as to how this ends up comparing to M&M HD as well, so I'll have to pull out my book and do some comparison.

[Finarvyn]

Jul 19, 2013 7:53:54 GMT -6 coffee said:

Very nice!

Does this presume dice add to the previous total, or do you recommend players reroll them all at each level? (I'm presuming the latter, but want to be clear.)

Re-roll at each level.

Of course, one could "reverse engineer" the number of dice to add on each level if one wanted. I don't think that would be hard.

[waysoftheearth]

Do you think you'd also up monster HD, in the manner suggested by GH?

It's interesting to play around with the numbers, for sure, but I'd be a bit cautious of hp inflation for it's own sake. That's the hp arms race between hp which can be sustained, and damage which can be dealt. If, on the other hand, you have more hp but unchanged damage then it means that combat would, in general, take longer.

If the overall result of the exercise is to give low level PCs better odds of surviving (by having a few more hp), several other options have been discussed on these boards which might be more targeted toward low level PCs. I think the above progression would benefit mid to high level PCs more in this regard; 1st and 2nd level PCs look to have 0, 1 or 2 more hp, but high level PCs can have 2 or more extra HD.

Another consideration is that there are a bunch of spells, magical effects, and monster abilities in OD&D that affect creatures of differing HD differently (or not at all). So, a general increase in number of HD would generally diminish these powers. That may be fine, especially if you think some of those powers are too much to start with, but this effect would once again benefit mid to high level PCs most.

Still, it's all good stuff to kick around

[Falconer]

Are these threads related at all?

All d6 HD
Monster Hit Dice: d8 converted back to d6

[Finarvyn]

Jul 19, 2013 23:04:53 GMT -6 Falconer said:

Are these threads related at all?

All d6 HD
Monster Hit Dice: d8 converted back to d6

Well, heck. I had forgotten that I had started a similar thread back in 2010. I know I've played with this idea for a while (for OD&D, AD&D, and C&C) but didn't remember starting threads on it. At least, the top one (mine) looks like a similar notion.

Jul 19, 2013 21:36:23 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Do you think you'd also up monster HD, in the manner suggested by GH?

That was my thought, yes. Everything would be re-rated in d6's instead of whatever dice Greyhawk suggests.

Jul 19, 2013 21:36:23 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

It's interesting to play around with the numbers, for sure, but I'd be a bit cautious of hp inflation for it's own sake. That's the hp arms race between hp which can be sustained, and damage which can be dealt.

Ways, I think you may have misunderstood my post. All I did was convert Greyhawk hit dice (d4, d6, or d8) all into d6's. While a character might get more hit dice, the average hit points doesn't change and I don't think it would give a lot more hit points to most characters.

Consider, for example, a 20th level fighting man. Greyhawk would give him 9d8+22 hit points. This gives a minimum of 31, average of 62.5, maximum of 94. My "all d6" system would give him 17d6+3. This gives a minumum of 20, average of 62.5, maximum of 105. While his maximum hit point value is a little higher, his minimum hit point value is also a little lower. I'n not sure either is a game breaker.

Let me try another example, just to see what the numbers do. I'll pick a 5th level magic user. Greyhawk would give 5d4 (5, 12.5, 20) while mine is 3d6+2 (5, 12.5, 20). That one's dead on. I wish I'd used that example first.

I suppose the biggest difference could be if you throw in CON bonuses, which would probably have to tie in to level instead of HD. (I was planning on using this HD approach with the LBB CON modifier, which has a max of +1. I can see that if I use the -3 to +3 chart from B/X that this could have a significant effect on hit points.)

[waysoftheearth]

Yes, I understand Fin; your d6 figures produce numbers of hit points on par with GH.

What I meant to say was:

By M&M a 9th level fighter has 9+3 HD, by d6 GH a 9th level fighter has 11+2 HD. So +2 HD.
By M&M a 9th level cleric has 7+1 HD, by d6 GH a 9th level cleric has 8+1 HD. So +1 HD.
By M&M a 9th level m-u has 6+1 HD, by d6 GH a 9th level m-u has 6+2 HD. So +1 hp.

It doesn't matter, it's just an observation.

In fact, for someone who is already using GH, then it doesn't matter at all!

[Finarvyn]

Well, I'm glad to see that we were basically on the same page. I was afraid that you had somehow totally misunderstood my post.

I agree that increasing the number of hit dice could be a problem in some cases even if the hit point totals are essentially the same, depending upon how often the HD comes into play. (CON bonus is obvious, but there probably are other places where HD is more important than level.)

And, no, I haven't been using GH progression but had considered it. Maybe it doesn't do what I want, as GH hit dice tend to downgrade the MU's hit point totals. Must ponder further...

[dizzysaxophone]

I think Way's main concern (or the one that still sticks out to me) is the effect of these HD on spell's. Like sleep's effects are based on how many HD the opponent has. I guess the best fix would be to go with levels instead of stated HD for instances like that.

[Porphyre]

One question: are those numbers supposed to be used with D6 only damage or GH-style variable weapon damage and claw/claw/bite routine for monsters?

[Finarvyn]

Jul 21, 2013 0:59:22 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

One question: are those numbers supposed to be used with D6 only damage or GH-style variable weapon damage and claw/claw/bite routine for monsters?

Since those numbers are based on the Greyhawk system for hit dice, I would assume that one would be using other variant rules from Greyhawk instead of the boxed set rules.

[Finarvyn]

Jul 20, 2013 14:55:07 GMT -6 dizzysaxophone said:

I think Way's main concern (or the one that still sticks out to me) is the effect of these HD on spell's. Like sleep's effects are based on how many HD the opponent has. I guess the best fix would be to go with levels instead of stated HD for instances like that.

Either that or spells like sleep would be less effective. I should go back and check to see how many spells are HD based.

It occurs to me that some of this problem has existed before, but no one has been worried about it. For example in Men & Magic a 7th level magic user has 4 HD (4d6), but if you switch to Greyhawk rules he has 7 HD (7d4). How did folks deal with that before? (I almost always use the M&M version, so I really hadn't pondered this particular issue.)

[dizzysaxophone]

I hadn't even considered that. I looked up sleep in Greyhawk, and Gary has toned sleep down already.

In the lbb's sleep affects 1-6 creatures from 2+2 to 4+1 HD, but Greyhawk states it only affects but a single target of 4 or 4+1 HD. Interesting.

[Finarvyn]

Jul 21, 2013 6:19:14 GMT -6 dizzysaxophone said:

I hadn't even considered that. I looked up sleep in Greyhawk, and Gary has toned sleep down already.

In the lbb's sleep affects 1-6 creatures from 2+2 to 4+1 HD, but Greyhawk states it only affects but a single target of 4 or 4+1 HD. Interesting.

Hmmm. So in Men & Magic, sleep can capture a 4th level fighter, 7th level magic user, or 5th level cleric. In Greyhawk it's 4th level, period.

Plus the fact that the M&M sleep can do more than one creature, if the HD are low enough.

Folks always did say that sleep was the most powerful 1st level spell....

[Stormcrow]

For characters, I'd probably read hit dice as levels.

Things might have been easier if they'd emphasized the idea of monster levels and used the word level throughout.

[jdn2006]

Something I've looked to replace d4s and d8s without pluses and minuses (but doubted many people would like because fighters get extra dice every so often and magic-users skip getting dice every so often) is:

Magic-User, Thief (3d4 = 12, which is 2d6 per 3 levels)
level 1 : 1 d6
level 2 : 2 d6
level 3 : 2 d6 (no h.p. gain)
level 4 : 3 d6
level 5 : 4 d6
level 6 : 4 d6 (no h.p. gain)
level 7 : 5 d6
level 8 : 6 d6
level 9 : 6 d6+ (no h.p. gain)

Fighting man (3d8 = 24, which is 4d6 per 3 levels)
level 1 : 2 d6 (2 dice)
level 2 : 3 d6
level 3 : 4 d6
level 4 : 6 d6 (2 dice)
level 5 : 7 d6
level 6 : 8 d6
level 7 : 10 d6 (2 dice)
level 8 : 11 d6
level 9 : 12 d6

[waysoftheearth]

Jul 21, 2013 12:47:27 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

For characters, I'd probably read hit dice as levels.

That's effectively what happened with GH, since every character has 1 HD per level (up until maximum HD).

That's fine, if that's what you want to do, but it waters down the fighter's advantages.

If you use M&M you'll see that the fighter has the advantage of having more HD, sooner.

Not only will he benefit more from a high constitution (since bonus hp are added per HD, not per level), he also avoids various magic/spell effects (based on HD) sooner, and attains "heroic" status sooner. Heroic status is pretty important in D&D because heroes are not subject to multiple attacks per round from monsters.