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Post by llenlleawg on Feb 25, 2013 5:57:31 GMT -6
The Moldvay/Cook expression of D&D, which is quite popular and now available again in its original in pdf (as well as emulated in Labyrinth Lord) takes its cue, more or less, from Greyhawk when it comes to hit dice (and variable damage), even if it is simplified on the whole. I wondered, however, what it might be like to run the game in which all classes used, like monsters, a d8 for hit dice, but have the hit die progression from Men & Magic in the original LBBs (or, if you like, the progression in Delving Deeper).
Retro-fitting this way, fighters would just use the fighter progression (with 11th at 10+3, 12th at 11+1, 13th at 11+3, 14th at 12+1), and dwarves as fighters up to 9th, with 10th at 10+2, 11th at 11+1, 12th at 12. Halflings would progress just as clerics of the same level, and elves as clerics of the same level up to 9th, with 7+3 at 10th (unlike the cleric's 7+2). Clerics subsequent levels would be 7+3 at 11th, 8+1 at 12th, 8+2 at 13th, and 8+3 at 14th). Thieves and magic users would progress at the same rate.
What's interesting here, and as I was reminded on another thread, this makes Constitution especially appealing to fighters and dwarves who get more hit dice, not merely more hit points per die. Also, setting aside the power of higher-level MUs (which is why I would likely use the DD progression), at lower and mid-levels the general hit points average out, but at 1st level all adventurers would have comparable hit points.
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Post by llenlleawg on Feb 25, 2013 7:26:45 GMT -6
By the book LBB progression is as follows (including the pre-Greyhawk thief), up to 14th level: Level | Fighter | Magic User | Cleric | Thief | 1 | 1+1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1+1 | 2 | 1+1 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 4 | 4 | 2+1 | 4 | 2+1 | 5 | 5+1 | 3 | 4+1 | 3 | 6 | 6 | 3+1 | 5 | 3+1 | 7 | 7+1 | 4 | 6 | 4 | 8 | 8+2 | 5 | 7 | 4+1 | 9 | 9+3 | 6+1 | 7+1 | 5 | 10 | 10+1 | 7 | 7+2 | 5+1 | 11 | 10+3 | 8+1 | 7+3 | 6 | 12 | 11+1 | 8+2 | 8+1 | 6+1 | 13 | 11+3 | 8+3 | 8+2 | 7 | 14 | 12+1 | 8+4 | 8+3 | 7+1 |
As you can see, the MU overtakes the cleric at 11th level, which is a bit odd, offset only because, at the same experience value, the cleric will be ahead (or at least equal, depending on how you extrapolate these values). Halfling would be as cleric, with a limit at 8th level. Elves would be as clerics up to 9th (with 7+1). Since elves have 9d6+2 at 10th in B/X as opposed to the cleric's 9d6+1, I would suggest a 10th level elf would be 7+3. Likewise, dwarves are as fighter up to 9th. In B/X, dwarves have the more advantageous +3/level over the fighter's +2/level. They are higher than fighters at 10th (9d8+3 vs 9d8+2), equal at 11th to a fighter at 12th (9d8+6), and at 12th just one less than a fighter at 14th (9d8+9 vs 9d8+10). So, I would suggest the following: Level | Dwarf | Elf | Halfling | 1 | 1+1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 5+1 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 6 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 7 | 7+1 | 6 | 6 | 8 | 8+2 | 7 | 7 | 9 | 9+3 | 7+1 | | 10 | 10+2 | 7+3 | | 11 | 11+1 | | | 12 | 12 | | |
Since the MU's progression is a tad wonky, and the B/X thief is slightly more favorable at higher levels than the MU, I would suggest the following for MU and Thief: Level | Magic User | Thief | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1+1 | 1+1 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 2+1 | 2+1 | 5 | 3 | 3 | 6 | 3+1 | 3+1 | 7 | 4 | 4 | 8 | 4+1 | 4+1 | 9 | 5 | 5 | 10 | 5+1 | 5+1 | 11 | 5+2 | 5+3 | 12 | 5+3 | 6+1 | 13 | 6+1 | 6+3 | 14 | 6+2 | 7+1 |
EDIT: Sorry, I screwed up the tables. They should be better now!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 9:05:09 GMT -6
I had a post on Dragonsfoot a few months back about the same topic. I like the OD&D style hit dice for the reasons you mentioned plus the fact that classes with extra hit dice (such as rangers) are less jarring to the system. I used the hit die progressions from Delving Deeper as they mirror the d8/d6/d4.
One thing I did change was to have the number of hit dice based on the class while the type of hit die is based on the size of the creature. Tiny creatures such as pixies and kobolds have d4 hit dice, small ones such as hobbits and goblins have d6. Medium creatures have d8 whereas large ones have d10 (for ogres) or d12 (giants and large dragons). Elves will be a special case by being medium sized but only getting d6 hit dice (by virtue of being so svelte). This will make it easier to have monster PCs as well as making the hobbit fighter match his B/X counterpart. Plus you can also use the hit dice as damage as it matches most monsters already (forex: in B/X Kobolds do d4 damage, goblins d6 and ogres d10. Orcs are the outlier only doing d6).
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