Rank, WD, DC and Wounds

[Zulgyan]

Calithena, will this terminology remain the same or undergo some revision? If no revision is made, should we use it in order to ease your work?

Maybe you should post some submission guidelines in order to lessen your work.

[calithena]

It's in flux. I'm contemplating "level" and "HTK" but I'll get a final statement out in time for issue 2. It's not a lot of work in any case, one thing I love about the old school games is their simplicity.

[Zulgyan]

Some ideas at the top of head:

1. HD changes to ML = Monster Level

In that way you can also have FL (fighter Level), WL (wizard level), PL (priest level) and RL (rogue level).


2. Hit Points - Hits to Kill (sound great! and it's JG too! pure Old School!)


3. AC - AQ (armor quality) or simply A (armor)

4. Move: I noticed that very few creatures in FO! nº1 had their movement stated.


Sample Stat-block: Orc: AQ 6, Move 9, ML 1, HTK 4.


DC is not so fortunate since it's a 3rd edition term and can be confusing and difficult to read and think of it as AC (what happened to me when I read the zine, because I played 3e for like 4 years).

[calithena]

Huh. I know what you mean about DC but it's an extremely natural abbreviation outside of that context.

ML is very much along the lines I'm thinking.

Are you sure there are creatures without a movement rate? Maybe the 'stat blocks' didn't include this on the adventures, but I'm pretty sure most or all of the new creatures had a movement listed.

[Zulgyan]

Yeah, that's right.

[Melan]

HD: LVL is natural and expressive. A HD is the level of a monster. Simple.
Hp: HTK is a recognisable old standard. But really, it is not 1980 anymore. Hp is an accepted term in roleplaying games, computer games and anywhere else you would have a meter for lifeforce (although most people think it stands for "Health Points").
AC: no idea, although lots of non-D&D computer roleplaying games had it.

[badger2305]

Games using the various terms under discussion:

Level (to indicate character expertise or advancement)
D&D
C&S
Empire of the Petal Throne (copyright not held by WOTC)
Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes
MERP/Rolemaster
Tunnels & Trolls
Villains & Vigilantes

Hit Points
D&D
Runequest
Villains & Vigilantes
MERP/Rolemaster (simply "hits")
Adventures in Fantasy ("hit dice")
All the World's Monsters ("hit dice" - copyright by Chaosium)

Armor Class
D&D
C&S
MERP/Rolemaster ("armor type")
Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes (simply "armor")
All the World's Monsters ("armor class" - copyright by Chaosium)

I suspect there may be less of a copyright issue than may first appear, judging by this list....

[James Maliszewski]

Apr 28, 2008 8:05:07 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

I suspect there may be less of a copyright issue than may first appear, judging by this list....

Likewise, given that all three terms are part of WotC's D20 SRD, they're all now pretty widespread with the blessing of WotC (not that they were rare anyway). I doubt there'd be any issue with using them, although I don't feel it's necessary to use "real" terms anyway. There's a certain old school charm to coming up with alternatives.

[busman]

You can't copyright short names or phrases:

From copyright.gov:

What Is Not Protected by Copyright?

Several categories of material are generally not eligible for federal copyright protection. These include among others:

* Titles, names, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients or contents
* Ideas, procedures, methods, systems, processes, concepts, principles, discoveries, or devices, as distinguished from a description, explanation, or illustration

You can't even copyright the name of your band. These sorts of things CAN be Trademarked. But, the last time I looked it wasn't Armor Class (tm) or Hit Points (tm).

Copyright doesn't protect ideas, information, etc. Only the presentation, description, etc. of those ideas.

What we are doing is exactly what was carved OUT of copyright: Extending and expanding on an idea previously presented.

Ours is NOT a derivative work, which is what is protected by copyright, which is defined by the gov as:

Derivative works, also known as “new versions,” include such works as translations, musical arrangements, dramatizations, fictionalizations, art reproductions, and condensations.

We are creating new works. Not deriving the old ones. It would be a derivative work, and one protected by wotc's copyright, if we were to reprint the 'stat blocks' of the monsters from the M&T.

Again, however, I'm not a lawyer.

[geoffrey]

I'm in favor of armor class, hit dice, hit points, levels, and all the rest.

[Zulgyan]

If that is legal, of course! If there is no legal problem that should be the way to go.

Someone should as ORCUS from the Necro-boards. He will surely know about this.

[edsan]

Apr 28, 2008 8:05:07 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

Empire of the Petal Throne (copyright not held by WOTC)

Thanks the Gods for that

[philotomy]

Apr 27, 2008 17:43:53 GMT -6 calithena said:

It's in flux. I'm contemplating "level" and "HTK"...

FWIW, I prefer "level" and "HTK" (or even "hits")

[philotomy]

For armor, if armor class isn't an option (personally, I think it is, but IANAL), I'd like:

Armor:
AC: (armor category)
AT: (armor type)

[busman]

Hmm, doing some more reading on the subject, my previous understanding of derivative works may have been too narrow. I still don't think we're in legal hot water, but the fact that there is a charge for the material certainly puts it in a different category.

One thing I'll stand by from my above post is that short phrases and especially abbreviations cannot be copyrighted. So, calling it Armor Category with the abbreviation AC is probably fine. I know this from a couple of real life situations the closest to me was that my father worked for NCR for nearly 30 years+, it used to be known as National Cash Register, but sometime in the 70s (might have been early 80s) they changed it to NCR, and the name of the company was NCR, not National Cash Register but called NCR. This is because they could not even (tm) the term NCR if it was an abbreviation of something else. Same reason IBM is IBM and no longer International Business Machines.

But, as I'm not financially involved in this venture, I can understand caution from the editors of the 'zine.

[brianm]

Ok, I need to reference a specific spell (cause fear, in this instance). How do I do that without causing anyone headaches?

- Brian

[calithena]

In general, I'd just say write up your adventure/supplement for whatever system you're using and we'll go ahead and hack it into a system-neutral format. "Cause Fear", like a lot of spells in older games, is an English description of an effect, so I think there's not too much to worry about there. I suppose you could write "instill fear" or something but in general the editors can take care of this sort of thing.

"Level" occurs in so many games I don't think we really need to worry about it. The rest I'm still mulling over.

[brianm]

Ok, thanks.

Shields has been emailed. Hope y'all like it.

- Brian

[jrmapes]

I've looked around but haven't turned up anything so has there been any more work done on the Submission Guidelines or are you still just wanting to "hack" it yourselves?

I have a couple ideas of things I might like to submit and I know a few others that have been talking about it too, but we really don't want to cold send anything. Less work for you and no misunderstandings, etc.


I have yet to be able to get a copy of the 1st issue due to my current money situation, hopefully will be able to order it next month, but I am really excited about this and want to help support Fight On!.

Anyway, I'm really just curious on how much longer till the guidelines get posted so we can look at things and see if we really do have something that we feel is worth submitting.

Jerry

[calithena]

Awesome Brian!

Hi Jerry,

If you or anyone you know isn't sure about something, just PM or email me a note (or have them do that) asking me. Submission guidelines are pretty much, if it's cool, we'll print it. We've worked with some non-D&D authors producing amazing content; you and other members of the K&K crew almost certainly can't go wrong in terms of how you stat things out. Let's put it this way: in general when it comes to monsters, magic items, spells, adventures, etc. anything you submit that would work with original D&D, AD&D, BX, BECMI, RC, Universal Fantasy System, Castles & Crusades, Arduin, Warlock, Thieves' Guild, Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC, Basic Fantasy, the Arduin Adventure, etc. etc. would all work as is for us. We might tinker with it slightly, but what we publish will be very, very similar to what you send in in those cases.

If you're working with rules mods or house rules, we take a totally modular approach to those, so they should be pretty good too, except maybe where they strongly piggyback on published subsystems that are clearly the provenance of a particular game system. (Most things can be detached, but maybe not all.)

Anyway, I guess I'm having trouble seeing what you're worried about here, but I'm happy to help with more specific questions. You and the K&K crew are part of our core audience as far as I'm concerned and I honestly have trouble seeing anything you guys write have trouble fitting in, but maybe there's something I'm not seeing. Like I said, just get in touch!

[calithena]

P.S. In case you're an outsider looking in, the above list is not exhaustive. We'd happily look at a good module for GURPS fantasy, 3 or 4 e D&D, Riddle of Steel, whatever...it's just that in those cases the magazine staff would have to do more conversion work to get it hammered into Generic Fantasy Standard.

[jrmapes]

Nope not worrying, just used to having set submission guidelines to go by. It's ok I can wait a bit. When I finally get to read the first issue then I can get a better grasp on things and what you all are doing with Fight On! I'm slowly catching up reading posts and I am sure I will glean more from that.

Really, it's not a big deal. It's just the way I am used to doing things, I may be an old farg but I still can learn a new trick or two.

Jerry

[dwayanu]

Thanks for clarifying about your format. I haven't seen an issue yet, and wasn't sure whether you would actually use (say) a write-up for T&T. I see that you might, but it wouldn't be published with the same "stats."

All considered, I think that's pretty neat. Back in the day, I regarded D&D as the closest thing to a "lingua franca" for FRP.

[calithena]

I suppose we ought to have submission guidelines, but I'm not averse to rewriting material with mediocre presentation and good ideas, and in addition right now I'm still chasing down articles rather than overflowing with material. I suspect after the adventure contest things will get a little tighter and at that point I may create some official submission guidelines. But really, I don't ever want them TOO tight, because my dream and hope is always that the smart 14-16 year olds will somehow get into old-school roleplaying, find the magazine, and send their own great stuff in, even if it needs some polish.

[geoffrey]

Apr 28, 2008 8:05:07 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

Games using the various terms under discussion:

Level (to indicate character expertise or advancement)
D&D
C&S
Empire of the Petal Throne (copyright not held by WOTC)
Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes
MERP/Rolemaster
Tunnels & Trolls
Villains & Vigilantes

Hit Points
D&D
Runequest
Villains & Vigilantes
MERP/Rolemaster (simply "hits")
Adventures in Fantasy ("hit dice")
All the World's Monsters ("hit dice" - copyright by Chaosium)

Armor Class
D&D
C&S
MERP/Rolemaster ("armor type")
Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes (simply "armor")
All the World's Monsters ("armor class" - copyright by Chaosium)

I suspect there may be less of a copyright issue than may first appear, judging by this list....

I agree. You can add Arduin to each of the above lists. Those terms have been in Arduin books published as early as 1977 and as recently as 2007. If the publishers of Arduin can continuously for 30 years refer to Level, Armor Class, Hit Points, and Hit Dice, then I think doing so is pretty safe.

[calithena]

Issue 3 contains level, WD, wp, DC as the core abbreviations.

Starting in issue 4 though I'm pretty sure we're going to do HD and hp, maybe AC too. I've written a disclaimer for the future intro page that makes me feel more comfortable about using these.

[Zulgyan]

Good news!

[apeloverage]

I just got my copy of issue 3, and I noticed that this terminology doesn't seem to be defined anywhere. Also there doesn't seem to be any link to (eg) Swords & Wizardry. Any chance of doing a page with this information?

[calithena]

We had a short terminology definition in issue 1 and maybe 2.

Material originally written for S&W, Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC, C&C, etc. are all cheerfully accepted for publication in Fight On! In the case of Labyrinth Lord and Mutant Future, we have a limited ability to reference the games as well, thanks to the way Dan Proctor interprets the license (and his explicit permission, I tend to avoid doing stuff without that). But we don't use the OGL and in general the conceit of the magazine is that the articles are for each GMs homebrewed system, most of which are of course pretty close in actual mechanics, and easy to adopt from game to game.

I think the straightforward readability of future issues will be ehhanced by the closer adherence to conventions of other RPGs, but we'll try to define anything nonstandard somewhere. The massive TOC in #3 just knocked it off the page!