Legolas was slow and the kestros was cool!

[Cthulhu Colin]

So, how do we model this technique for master archers?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g

Bit fast, innit? I'm thinking it'd be limited in effective use to short compound bows.

Also, the ancient greeks used darts in their slings sometimes (kestros):

www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9SUw-DPW-8

Do you think any slinger should be able to load and sling a dart, or just masters? I'm thinking 1d6+1 damage for a slung dart, and an increased sling range of 60/120/180
It's as effective as a light crossbow, but is obviously more costly (as the dart cost 1gp). Still, if you don't have a light crossbow, and have a few darts handy, it can be a useful technique/option.

[mabon5127]

I get a "currently unavailable" message. I assume this is one of the speed archery videos that is simply amazing and turns my concept of archery on its head.

Morgan

[Cthulhu Colin]

Just revised the links. Any better now?

Colin

[Ghul]

Fascinating. And what a serendipitous moment! Ever since we put together the "Cryomancer" class for AFS#2 I've been trying to work out a way to make a mater archer class, something that is not merely a fighter or ranger with weapon mastery in the bow, but something a different. Now you have my brain spinning! Thanks Colin! ~Jeff T.

[Ghul]

Do you think any slinger should be able to load and sling a dart, or just masters? I'm thinking 1d6+1 damage for a slung dart, and an increased sling range of 60/120/180
It's as effective as a light crossbow, but is obviously more costly (as the dart cost 1gp). Still, if you don't have a light crossbow, and have a few darts handy, it can be a useful technique/option.

This I tend to think would be more as you suggest -- a technique for master slingers alone. It's an intriguing concept!

[Sean Michael Kelly]

So cool..... let `em fly!

[Cthulhu Colin]

Jan 28, 2013 9:23:29 GMT -6 Ghul said:

Fascinating. And what a serendipitous moment! Ever since we put together the "Cryomancer" class for AFS#2 I've been trying to work out a way to make a mater archer class, something that is not merely a fighter or ranger with weapon mastery in the bow, but something a different. Now you have my brain spinning! Thanks Colin! ~Jeff T.

Impressive stuff, isn't it? Such an archer should also be a highly capable mounted archer too. Very much something I think would suit the Kimmerians (and K-Kelts).

Another thing to possibly bear in mind is that firing forward from a charging mount imparts more penetration to the missile too (probably about +1 damage in game terms). Mythbusters proved it was the case (but that it wasn't doubling the kinetic energy like some people thought).

Colin

[Cthulhu Colin]

I'm going to modify the Arms of Hyperborea document to include the dart slinging stuff:

NEW ADVANCED COMBAT ACTION
Dart Slinging: A master slinger (weapon mastery with sling required; see VOL. I, WEAPON SKILL, weapon mastery) can elect to fit a dart to his sling and use it instead of a stone or bullet. A slung dart does 1d6+1 damage, and has a range of 60/120/180.

[owlorbs]

Lars is amazing. That made my day.

[Cthulhu Colin]

The most sobering thing is that he's only been learning the age-old techniques for a comparatively short time; imagine then how much better someone who'd been learning them most of their adult life was...

Colin

[Cthulhu Colin]

Oh, and you can apparently do stuff like richochet shots with bows too. Look at any of the vids featuring Byron Ferguson: he's hit an aspirin thrown in the air, shot through the middle of a wedding ring, ricocheted arrows off multiple surfaces (and still hit the target!). When you consider that an arrow flexes as it goes through the air, it's nothing short of astounding.

A master archer class would be utterly lethal, capable of firing at amazing rates or with jaw-dropping accuracy, as well as pulling off stunts most folks didn't know the bow could even achieve.

[blackadder23]

Jeff, I hope you'll think long and hard about the mechanical implications before you add any kind of "machine gun archer" to the game. Missile weapons obviously have a much deeper killing zone than melee weapons. Since the majority of monsters only have melee attacks, this often lets characters using missile weapons make attacks without concern for immediate reprisals. Furthermore, many of the most dangerous monster special attacks (poison, paralysis, energy drain) are only effective at melee range. Anything that boosts the damage output of missile weapons will reduce the overall challenge level of most opponents, especially opponents who use those special attacks which are supposed to be the most menacing! Honestly, who wouldn't prefer to mow a wight down with three silver arrows rather than melee it? But it really takes the edge off of wights, doesn't it? Boosting the damage output of missile weapons, which already enjoy a built-in advantage over the melee attacks favored by most monsters (i.e., a greatly reduced risk of being attacked in turn), makes no sense to me at all. Regardless of whether a guy doing circus tricks in a youtube video accurately reflects the realities of deadly combat (I have my doubts), I feel it's a bad idea from a gaming standpoint.

[Ghul]

Jan 30, 2013 9:38:31 GMT -6 blackadder23 said:

Jeff, I hope you'll think long and hard about the mechanical implications before you add any kind of "machine gun archer" to the game. Missile weapons obviously have a much deeper killing zone than melee weapons. Since the majority of monsters only have melee attacks, this often lets characters using missile weapons make attacks without concern for immediate reprisals. Furthermore, many of the most dangerous monster special attacks (poision, paralysis, energy drain) are only effective at melee range. Anything that boosts the damage output of missile weapons will reduce the overall challenge level of most opponents, especially opponents who use those special attacks which are supposed to be the most menacing! Honestly, who wouldn't prefer to mow a wight down with three silver arrows rather than melee it? But it really takes the edge off of wights, doesn't it? Boosting the damage output of missile weapons, which already enjoy a built-in advantage over the melee attacks favored by most monsters (i.e., a greatly reduced risk of being attacked in turn), makes no sense to me at all. Regardless of whether a guy doing circus tricks in a youtube video accurately reflects the realities of deadly combat (I have my doubts), I feel it's a bad idea from a gaming standpoint.

I know. I get it. There are other issues that come to mind when trying to develop such a class. A great part of the archer allure is the "trick shot" -- putting an arrow through a ring, as Colin points out. These are amazing things to behold from a RL standpoint, but for gaming it inevitably leads to the "called shot," and I am a strong proponent of abstraction. In my weekly game it occasionally happens that one of my players will say something like, "I swing for his head!" to which I have a standard response:

"Make your 'to-hit' roll. If you hit, and your blow delivers a large amount of damage that perhaps exceeds more than half your opponent's hp, I might rule that you nailed him in the head."

In my experience (30+ years of D&D!) I have found after several tries that called shots are a hindrance to the game.

I'm getting tangential. Back to the point: I intend to experiment with an archer class, and the rapid fire shot looks exciting, but I'm not sure exactly how I am going to approach this idea, presently. I appreciate your concerns, though, and I wholeheartedly agree with them.

[Cthulhu Colin]

I wouldn't be overly worried, personally. If you didn't think anything was particularly out-of-whack class-wise in ASSH already, that should give you a pretty good idea of how solid a grasp Jeff has of such things. I see it all as amazing and inspirational, but that doesn't necessarily follow that such elements as great speed and accuracy would be represented in a particular way system-wise. Hell, you'd have master archers firing off 20 arrows in a 10-second combat round if you went the route of emulating it, and that'd clearly be mad in a game known for its abstract approach in combat generally. Not to mention boring as all hell for any but the archer who's rolling 20 individual attack and damage rolls (and has probably used all their arrows in a single round assuming you let them carry two full quivers, and so becomes largely useless thereafter).

[blackadder23]

No disrespect intended to the archers; I'm sure they worked long and hard to manage such tricky shots.

[Deleted]

If correctly balanced it might not be overpowered for a campaign. Master Archer in a campaign would necessitate either several roadblocks for the PC to overcome or have the group fight a group of monks that love to swat arrows out of the air!

[rabindranath72]

And that's why I always used the rule for triple ROF with missiles during surprise in AD&D

[Ghul]

Feb 8, 2013 6:36:56 GMT -6 rabindranath72 said:

And that's why I always used the rule for triple ROF with missiles during surprise in AD&D

Ha! The oft debated rule now justified by youtube!

[rabindranath72]

Well, if a commoner can pull those tricks, imagine what an elven fighter could do! *shudder*

[Ghul]

Feb 8, 2013 9:44:18 GMT -6 rabindranath72 said:

Well, if a commoner can pull those tricks, imagine what an elven fighter could do! *shudder*

. . . whilst surfboarding down the trunk of a gargantuan oliphant, no less.