Is a Complex Social System Required for EPT?

[greentongue]

Is EPT just not EPT without a Complex Social System?
It seems to be the biggest stumbling block to getting people to try the game. The more "realistic" the social structure the more difficult it is to get people to try the game.

So that begs the question, just how important is the Complex Social System to the authenticity of the game. Is it just "Generic Anygame" without it? Do you enforce the social structure? Have you added any additional mechanical features to encourage its adoption?
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[kesher]

You certainly could run it without the complexities of Tekumeli society, or at least tone them down. The Professor always held that "YTMV". Personally however, I think that's fairly analogous to running, say, a Lord of the Rings game without the complexities of Middle Earth (whatever the Age).

The sheer weight of the setting can certainly turn people off (I've seen it happen), but that's also the brilliance of how play is set up in the original game. Players are all foreigners in the ancient city of Jakalla; learning about Tsolyani society is part of the game itself, sort of like learning about the Old Ones is part of the player experience in Call of Cthulhu. As a GM, you can introduce only the parts they need to know for a particular adventure. There's no actual game mechanic tied to it, but characters can only advance so far without becoming savvy enough to make connections.

[Vile Traveller]

I think you're right on all counts. You could tone down the social system for EPT, but then it would not be EPT. I think the stratified society is the key aspect of that game world. And I do think that turns a lot of people off before or after trying the game (myself included).

[greentongue]

Dec 28, 2012 19:03:59 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

You could tone down the social system for EPT, but then it would not be EPT. I think the stratified society is the key aspect of that game world.

While it may be true that it is an aspect of that game world, is it a critical aspect of gaming in it?
Even the novels spend a lot of time underground or on the road and not mixing with "High Society". Hasn't the specter of play in the social system caused much harm to gaming in the setting?

As crass as this may sound, it is a GAME first and not an alternate reality. Isn't "Doing it for the Clan!" all that is really needed? Instead of meeting in a tavern, you meet in a clan house. "We need you to do this for the clan."

It even makes things easier to begin with since all the players are related, even if distantly.

Why do so many people think that it is required to learn etiquette that is not even included in the rules? If it was actually that critical, wouldn't it have been detailed, besides mentioning multiple pronouns??
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[kesher]

Well, that's a fair point---maybe I just misunderstood your initial question. I think a game where everyone's connected through a single clan, or connected clans, or a foreigner or non-human somehow beholden to the clan could work pretty well. With that set-up, you could use the setting more as just color.

I'd play in that!

[thorswulf]

I think that newcomers to Tekumel are well served with the model of the world, and the starting scenario in EPT. I think it would serve gamers who are less role players and more action oriented types in particular. If you are fortunate enough to game with folks who are good role players then a looser style might work better, with the guidelines being that you think of clan first, your personal honor second if it is at odds with your clan, and your integrity as a citizen of a nation. A good and noble person WILL make human sacrifices if it is called for by their religion on Tekumel. likewise if your clan is shamed by the actions of others you will sseek some form of legal retribution. Sexuality is not to be ignored as it has it's place in the society as a whole as well.

Good role players can pull this off easily enough with a little coaching from the GM. Maybe even some note cards with rough info about particulars would help get the ball rolling. Most folks I have played EPT with quicly find themselves using Tsolyani words for common items and things(e.g. ngalu wine, tsural buds, hneqqu weed). This helps build the atmosphere for them.

[Vile Traveller]

From my brief experience, I think that approach is still subject to the social stratification of the world unless you go really old-school and just have the PCs appearing at the dungeon entrance at the start of the game. Anything your characters do between, on the way to, or coming back from adventures is impacted by their social status - even which road they're allowed to walk on. It's easier if everyone is of the same social class (in fact, it's very difficult if they're not), but in the greater world they are still stuck in that class relative to everyone else which affects what they can and cannot do.

Also, even assuming they are of the same social class, they are only ever "outside society" in the wilderness or down a dungeon. Any adventures in civilised lands will be circumscribed by their social strata.

This is purely my opinion based on a single campaign I played in, of course. My personal opinion is that EPT is nothing special in terms of fantasy gaming if you ignore the social gaming aspect of it - the magic, gods and critters are really only superficially different from D&D.

My favourite use for EPT is to strip-mine it for background to use with RuneQuest in Teshnos (a so far unpublished part of Glorantha, although I believe the upcoming mega guide will have some detailed maps of the place).

[greentongue]

Jan 4, 2013 22:54:33 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

,,, but in the greater world they are still stuck in that class relative to everyone else which affects what they can and cannot do.

In my opinion that is the biggest obstacle holding back play in the setting. It has been my experience that players play for what they can do in an imaginary world and not what they cannot.
While "restriction breeds creativity" is true and important, if a new player's first introduction to the setting is to list what they can't do, it does not encourage them to play.
You will not rise in society without learning and following the social norms is (IMHO) a much better presentation. This does not force conformity but encourages it. If the players wish to limit themselves to the dregs of society that becomes their choice. There is a place for those without status, the typical "murder hobo" player is fine filling that role. Meanwhile, they are playing, acclimating and evaluating the options.
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[greentongue]

If we remove the Social System as the primary differentiation of the game/setting, what is left that makes people pick it over something else?

I have always thought the inclusion for tech items as "magic" was good. Back in the Day it was singular and well blended, now it is not so unique.

The fight against Other Worldly Horrors gave players a reason to work together even if a mixed group. Again, Call of Cthulhu provides the same in a well know setting.

What does (or would) draw you into playing if the Social System was just background color and not a primary factor?
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[geoffrey]

The non-standard races and monsters are a big draw for me.

[Deleted]

A complex campaign setting loses much of its flavor when one removes its social system. So I would argue that a complex social system is indeed required.

[greentongue]

Jan 13, 2013 17:14:35 GMT -6 @sirravd said:

A complex campaign setting loses much of its flavor when one removes its social system. So I would argue that a complex social system is indeed required.

Can you defend that position further considering that there are few if any rules in the book detailing how to play within the social system? I agree it can be used to add flavor but, it was not considered important enough to the original rule release to include details beyond mentioning it.

I think of it more along the lines of Star Trek, the top officers on the initial contact away team. Like that would be allowed to happen in a "real" organization. So to would "adventuring" require extensive permits by at least one hierarchy if not several.
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[Deleted]

My original reply was not specific enough; by "required," I meant that it is highly important, not that it is impossible to run an enjoyable game without a complex social system.

[jjarvis]

Tthe complex social system need not be played anymore complex than the rules present it. Until your 6th level its a dangerous place to be an outsider acting outside the foreign quarter. Its a simple die roll to avoid doom, othewise it is effectively abstract and a baroque as players can imagine.

[greentongue]

It is interesting to me that a lot of what people point to, as how to play, is the Professor's game. This having been played by people that had done it for years. I rarely hear about the first few games. What I do hear is that the complex social system was effectively abstract at first. After all, he was the only one that had a clue of "how to act" initially.
So, players new to the setting should not have a more difficult time than the "original" players. (IHMO)

Can players layer on the social system as they have played for a time? That is certainly a supportable option. Should new players be required to study etiquette before playing? I think not ... for most games.
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[Baron]

Maybe I'm dense, but I'm not really seeing the issue.

What is the 'complex social system?' That people belong to clans? That there aren't taverns? That they clap outside a door and hang plaques at doorways to let you know what's up with the person inside? Or is it the myriad forms of address? I just don't see the issue.

From reading the fiction and the fluff over many, many years, as well as the game books, I'd say 'gaming in a Tekumel game' consists of many factors. You either play it like any other game, without sweating all the local language words for things, or you and a bunch of like-minded players decide to adopt more of the language, and get more descriptive and esoteric in how your characters behave. IE, going into detail about how you are seated at the banquet and how you eat. Is that really such a big deal?

And is it *required?* How could it be? Say we decide to play a game in the Roman Empire. Do we all start dropping Latin words into our IC speeches? Do we bother to describe how we lace our sandals and drape our robes? No, we don't. Does that mean we're not playing a 'proper Roman' game? I don't think so.

So, if I want to play in a 'Tekumel game,' it's about what type of character I'm playing (fighter, spellcaster), where he lives (give me a map and some color description), what magic and monsters are there (lists and stats please), and what my goal is (bring back the whatsis from the northern barbarians).

My Tekumel may vary, but really now, why should anyone feel intimidated by a role playing game? It's just a game. Let's play!

[Deleted]

I guess I'm a latecomer to this post because I don't visit these boards very often, but I did want to make some comments.

First, I think that EPT was maybe the second RPG that TSR published after the D&D white box and supplements. There were no rules for social class in the 1975 rules just like there were no rules for lots of things. Second, there were no need for social rules - your characters started the game in the foreign quarter, aka slums, of Jakalla. Everyone had a higher social class than you did except for the slaves and non-humans. That is probably the ideal way to play the game so that you have a reason for not being familiar with the culture and can discover it.

I believe that one of the goals of the game was to expose gamers to a non-European setting. Unfortunately I think that we have a hard time portraying any culture that is different from our own (myself included), and that is why most of the games seem to be a European culture with medieval/renaissance weapons. Having a nobility around or a polytheistic religion is contrary to my experience and is hard for me to portray/roleplay in the game. I don't think that caste system in EPT is all that complex, it is just not something we are exposed to and the unfamiliar is hard to portray.

[greentongue]

Apr 11, 2013 19:03:59 GMT -6 @quasit said:

I believe that one of the goals of the game was to expose gamers to a non-European setting. Unfortunately I think that we have a hard time portraying any culture that is different from our own (myself included), and that is why most of the games seem to be a European culture with medieval/renaissance weapons. Having a nobility around or a polytheistic religion is contrary to my experience and is hard for me to portray/roleplay in the game. I don't think that caste system in EPT is all that complex, it is just not something we are exposed to and the unfamiliar is hard to portray.

May explain where there are so few that try to do so.
That would be a good source of expansions and supplements for gaming (even in general). I'm not sure most players really care to spend the effort on it though.
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[Deleted]

Apr 11, 2013 19:03:59 GMT -6 @quasit said:

your characters started the game in the foreign quarter, aka slums, of Jakalla. Everyone had a higher social class than you did except for the slaves and non-humans. That is probably the ideal way to play the game so that you have a reason for not being familiar with the culture and can discover it.

While that's a nice way to introduce players to Tekumel, it isn't a very good way of introducing new DMs to the game world. City adventuring is hard enough to run in generic D&D but adding the culture and language differences only complicated it further.

Perhaps the default starting position should be inside those foreign barbarian lands. That way you can gradually introduce both the players and DMs to the game world.

[greentongue]

Apr 12, 2013 10:03:49 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

While that's a nice way to introduce players to Tekumel, it isn't a very good way of introducing new DMs to the game world. City adventuring is hard enough to run in generic D&D but adding the culture and language differences only complicated it further.

Well most times new players picked up a patron first thing and went with them. "City adventuring" only happened between stores.

Perhaps the default starting position should be inside those foreign barbarian lands. That way you can gradually introduce both the players and DMs to the game world.

Not a bad option certainly.
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